Transcript of Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa’s replies to oral questions in parliament, National Assembly, Thursday, 11 May 2017
THURSDAY, 11 MAY
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
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The House met at 14:02
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayer or meditation.
Question 13:
13. Ms C C September (ANC) to ask the Deputy President: With reference to his keynote address at the National Skills Conference on 24 March 2017 on the necessity of skills that are responsive to national priorities, (a) how does the proposed new National Skills Development Strategy address the national priorities and (b) what are the lessons from the previous strategy that have influenced the content of the new strategy? NO1019E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker!
The SPEAKER: You are not the Deputy President, hon Steenhuisen. I have just called the Deputy President ... [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, may I address you in terms of Rule 63, the Rule of anticipation. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, just take your seat. Deputy President, please proceed.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the proposed National Skills Development Strategy, NSDS, which is referred to here, is currently being discussed at Nedlac. The implementation is scheduled to happen on 1 April 2020, once the consultation process has been concluded and the relevant legislative framework has been finalised.
The proposed new NSDS focuses on occupations that support growth, encourage employment creation and enable social development. This would allow for the delivery of a range of programmes and will not be restricted to scarce skills to ensure that they reach a large number of people, which in the end will enable them to have access to employment and be able to embark on self-employment opportunities.
This proposed plan is aligned with many others; the National Development Plan, NDP, White Paper for Post-School Education and Training and other key documents of government, which have set out important strategies and priorities for development with an emphasis on inclusive growth as well as employment creation.
One of most critical mandates of the Department of Higher Education is to ensure that the skills development systems and all supporting institutions are properly aligned to respond not only to national priorities but to a wide range of needs inherent in the developmental state project that we want to see happening in our country.
The proposed NSDP specifically emphasises the need to address all these challenges that have emerged from the current strategy, including, but not limited to the production of artisans as envisaged in the NDP and the placement of learners and graduates in the workplace.
The role of the National Skills Authority will be restructured according to this plan and refocus with its functions concentrated specifically on the monitoring and evaluation of our skills development system. Lessons that have been learned from the current strategy include the need to strengthen governance. The proposed plan seeks to establish credible systems for skills planning as well.
Finally, the success of this strategy and all other programmes aimed at building our human capital will be judged by the extent to which our young people, who are the key beneficiaries of this, will be able to gain the skills necessary to participate meaningfully in the labour market of our country. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Ms C C SEPTEMBER: Madam Speaker, having listened to the response the Deputy Speaker gave to the question, should our resolve then also not be to ensure that we have a skilled and capable workforce that shares and contributes to the benefits of economic expansion whilst negotiations are continuing at Nedlac and also very importantly, inclusive growth? More importantly, Deputy President, can we ensure that we would know that the success of the plan depends of course on co-operation of all role-players for the benefits of women, youth, unemployed and learners? What is government doing to realise this and how would government ensure that all of this can happen? Thank you, Madam Speaker.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, it is quite clear that the issue of skills development in our country and probably the most important project our nation should be embarking on is through a skilled workforce that will be able to restructure the economy of our country and to ensure that we do indeed create meaningful jobs that our people can get into.
Right now, the Human Resource Development Council, HRDC, which I chair is focusing on that but more importantly, the Department of Higher Education and Training also focuses on all these. With negotiations and discussions that are taking place at the Nedlac level, we are certain that those social partners within Nedlac are the appropriate partners who should come up with innovative ideas and plans on how we can put our skills development process into a higher gear.
Our young people are hungry for skills acquisition and all we need do is open up all the doors and give them opportunities to acquire those skills. We are seeking to do this through focus programmes through our Technical and Vocational Education and Training, TVET, colleges and indeed our universities as well. TVET colleges are meant to be the focal areas where we want to absorb as many young people as we possibly can and skill them with real skills that are useful in the economy.
To this end, we are roping in as many companies as possible to co-operate with us at the TVET college level both through adoption processes and also to curriculum development so that as we develop the skills, the skills are well attuned to the world of work and to what the industry and companies also require.
So, I couldn’t agree more with the hon member and say that, indeed, skills development is a key area that we need to focus on as a nation and get all social partners in our country to participate in. Thank you very much.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Hon Deputy President, skills, as we have agreed is a very important aspect of transformation in the country. One of the problems we seem to be experiencing is that there is no link between the skills needs of the country and the curriculum of the different tertiary institutions.
Now, government provides NFSAS funding and bursaries. What is government willing to do to ensure that the funding provided through NFSAS or bursaries is in line with the skills development needs of this country? Very important, the challenges that we face in the TVET colleges, which are supposed to be providing the artisans and skills needed, their success rate is very limited. Could you please advice as to what additional measures will government take to resolve this matter? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Shaik is absolutely right. There is a need for us to align what our institutions of higher learning are teaching with what the needs of the country are and specifically what the needs of our economy are. It is in this regard that we are encouraging these institutions to co-operate more at close range with industry players. We are encouraging industry players to interface with these institutions so that the curricula that are offered at institutions of higher learning are well aligned with what the industry needs. This is beginning to take place in a number of cases.
This also touches on the second question that the hon Shaik has raised about TVET colleges. As I said earlier in my answer that we are encouraging TVET colleges to partner with industry players either close to where their institutions are located or to industry players that may well be located elsewhere to bring them closer and to have a system of co-operation and collaboration, which will lead realignment of the curricula and go beyond that by getting young people to be placed in learnerships and jobs in those companies may be operating in particular industries.
Madam Speaker, we have found that when this happens, we do get a number of young people being offered not only learnerships but real jobs when this type of co-operation happens. We have seen that happening in the
Mr M L W FILTANE: Hon Speaker, a developing country needs six skills in order for it to move forward. I will enumerate a few: Infrastructure needs skills; knowledge development and use needs skills; funds needs skills to be developed and managed and naturally occurring infrastructure. Skills are just one of those capitals but this is very central.
Now, schools are full, especially in the
Now, this is a matter of concern. It means that for these people to be able to learn they would depend on scholarships and as government how do you intend circumventing the fact we need more skilled people when the education system is not being all that helpful, and especially from the funding perspective. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, with regard to the challenges that our country continues to face at the school level, I am pleased to say that the Department OF Basic Education is well aware and alive to these challenges and continues to take concerted efforts to address these problems.
The Minister of Basic Education continues to say that the important task in the end is to revamp our education system to a point where we get young children at school level to be able to read and write. They have a number of projects and programmes that are aimed at enhancing precisely that.
Clearly, the legacy of our past tends to catch up with us as we move ahead. It holds us back but notwithstanding all that, there are a number of initiatives, which the Department of Basic Education or the Ministry of Basic Education is embarking on improving the whole process of learning the whole process of learning and teaching. Where it’s making traction, we are seeing phenomenal results. We are seeing how young people have taken up the task of learning and reading in an enthusiastic way.
Clearly, the issue of funding is going to continue to be a problem, particularly now that the economy of our country is not growing as fast as we want it to. Our commitment to funding and supporting higher education, particularly at the TVET colleges is something that is firm and something we are determined to go ahead with. We will continue to fund those TVET colleges. Obviously we would like to open as many as possible but that may not be possible. This is where the partnership between private sector and the public sector becomes important because through this type of relationship we will be able to unlock resources and reservoirs of assistance that we can rely on to ensure that our education system produces the type of skills that we want it to produce. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Speaker, the ACDP welcomes the proposed new NSDS, which we hope will help address some of the many challenges facing poor and unemployed South Africans, such as accessing information about opportunities and available skills development programmes.
If I may, I would like to suggest that the Deputy President considers using his influence to ensure that when implementing agents of these programmes disseminate information that municipalities and constituency offices of Members of Parliament also become hubs where such information could be made available for community members. What I want to know from the Deputy President is whether or not the NSDS includes mentorship programmes for the various skills being developed? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the suggestion that we should utilise implementing agents as they go about implementing this strategy, they should also utilise various offices including Members of Parliament, I find it refreshing and welcome proposal, which we would like to take up with the ministry or better still with those who are going to be implementing the strategy. So, I would like to thank Rev Meshoe for coming up with that idea. I am sure it is implementable.
With regard to the issue of mentorship, it clearly has to be part and parcel of this strategy. We already see how mentorship pays dividends through the TVET college process that I spoke about. Once we strike a partnership between industry players and our TVET colleges according to the various disciplines that are inherent in the TVET colleges, we often find that companies that participate are able to deploy people. Some of them almost deploy on permanent basis and they are able to young people young people in the various skills that they have chosen.
Mentorship, particularly as we are dealing with a very terrible past of a system that tended to dehumanise our people, we find it that mentorship can help a great deal and many who are participating in this type of process are finding it very worthwhile. In that regard, I would like to thank Rev Meshoe again for raising this matter. Thank you.
Question 14:
14. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) to ask the Deputy President: How many times, since his appointment on 29 May 2014 as the Leader of Government Business, has he arranged with the newly appointed Minister of Police, Mr F A Mbalula, or the former Minister, Mr N P Nhleko, to appear before the (a) National Assembly and (b) Portfolio Committee on Police to deal with government business? NO1017E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, as I indicated in a previous reply in this very House. There is a section called section 92 (2) of the Constitution that says that Members of Cabinet, that is members of the executive are accountable collectively as well as individually to this very Parliament for the exercise of their powers and the performance of their functions. Now, the Constitution goes further and says that members of the national executive must provide Parliament, which includes this National Assembly with full and regular reports concerning matters under their control.
The executive remains committed to ensuring that it accounts regularly and effectively to Parliament that I can say without any equivocation. Cabinet receives regular report from the leader of government business, particularly when it comes whether Members of Parliament are executing their functions or not when it comes to answering parliamentary questions. Each time the executive meets, the leader of government business presents a report on how each member of the executive is performing and where we find that they are flagging in their performance. We raised it with them and encourage them to perform as it is as expected. So this matter, I have dealt with quite extensively in this National Assembly. If there is a lack of clarity on this matter, the Constitution is a document that should be studied closely, if it’s not, it’s a document that members can have for bedtime reading. [Interjections.] Read it very carefully and understand exactly what it says. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy President, I mean in the interest of the President having bedtime reading around the Constitution, I wanted to get some clarity from you because it is correct that it is in the interest of accountability that members must come to this House to account. Now, Deputy President we note that Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma, an ordinary citizen in South Africa is receiving state protection on the basis of a security threat assessment.
Now part of the culture that’s development, is that even the President used a report which you mentioned, an intelligence report to remove a former Finance Minister. [Interjections.] And worse, he is asking us to give him that report. [Laughter.] Now, in the interest of accountability I don’t want the Minister of Police to come here and ask us to give him a security assessment for Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma. What I am more interested in asking Deputy President is how are you going to ensure that, in fact, the Minister of Police comes to account here about fragrant state abuse, and ultimately how does he ensure that state money is not being spent on protecting the friends or family of the President when it comes to this VIP security? Thank you very much.
Mr B A RADEBE: On a point of order.
The SPEAKER: What’s the point of order, hon Radebe?
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, with due respect, the follow up question is radically different from the original question. [Interjections.] It’s unfair to the Deputy President. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, would you like to forego this question on the basis of the point of order that has been raised or would you like to entertain it, anyway?
Mr M L W FILTANE: Point of order, Chair.
The SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, I see, you have been on your feet already.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Point of Order, Chair.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member. There was a point of order just now. I am dealing with the Deputy President. Hon Filtane, can you just take your seat, please! Let’s proceed.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Sorry, will you give me an opportunity?
The SPEAKER: If you are on the list for the follow-up question, I will give you.
Mr M L W FILTANE: No, no, I am talking about the point of order.
The SPEAKER: No, hon member, you don’t raise a point of order on top of a point of order. Please, take your seat hon Filtane.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, in the light of the point of order that has been raised, all I wanted to add or say was that in the interest of enhancing accountability and all that, I would advise the hon member, the Leader of the Opposition to have these matters addressed at the relevant committee of this Assembly. [Interjections.] Thereafter, it can also be raised here. That is where the Minister of Police would be able to entertain and answer these questions, and I am sure the Minister would not be saying that he should come up with an assessment report himself. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Now hon Filtane, I will give you a chance to raise your point of order. However, in actual fact, please, hon members can we allow a question session to stay that way. However, go ahead and raise your point of order.
Mr M L W FILTANE: Thank you for the opportunity, Chair. It has fallen off. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Thank you very much.
Mr N PAULSEN: Speaker, hon Deputy President in February this year, the Head of Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, Robert McBride reported to Parliament that members of the Hawks and SA police Service, the SAPS, were fighting over drugs, at times killing each other at OR Tambo Airport. He further said that the then Police Minister Nathi Nhleko was protecting these rogue police. What have you done as a leader of government business to investigate those allegations and make the Minister account for his role in the deterioration in the quality of the work of the police?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker that is a matter that clearly has to be investigated by the relevant entities of the police and indeed also Ipid itself. These are matters that when properly and fully investigated, a report is then prepared and handed over to the relevant body. In this case, if it’s a matter as serious as this it could end up with the Minister or with the President himself. So, it’s not a matter that a leader of government business would get involved in and conduct investigations, because the leader of government business doesn’t even have the facilities to conduct such investigations. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
IsiZulu:
Mn Z
English:
... towards the end of his tenure as former Police Minister, Minister Nhleko precipitated a complete breakdown of his relationship with the Ipid directorate Robert McBride refusing to meet with him and telling him to report to the Speaker instead of to him as the Minister. Now, we observed in the Portfolio Committee on Police that Minister Nhleko would attend committee meetings with the Acting Police Commissioner Phahlane, but not with Mr McBride as part of the complete freeze-out he imposed on these crucial departments in his former portfolio. My question is: What measures are in place and what can you do as the leader of government business to resolve conflicts like these between Ministers and their senior officials in order to ensure the smooth running of government?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am able to say that this matter, indeed, it did arise and we had to deal with it. As the leader of government business, we tried to get the various parties together and sought to ensure that there is peace between them so that they can continue executing their tasks. It was rather a difficult matter to deal with. Many efforts were made to address this matter. This is the type of a matter where we intervened without trying to put it on the front pages of newspapers. It is an ongoing process that we get involved in at the leader of government business level to try to smooth ways and paths of working together amongst colleagues. So, this matter was addressed as it has turned out. There has been a change of guard and we are hoping that these types of matters will not arise on the ongoing basis. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Madam Speaker, to the hon Deputy President now that we know that the Minister of Police has been replaced with a new Minister of Police. Is there a process that you have undertaken to ensure that there is some form of continuity from the former Minister Nhleko to the new Minister Mbalula in order to fight crime in
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, we have in the execution of our tasks wanted to ensure that there is indeed continuity in the work that is done between the changes of leadership in any government entity, be it at Ministerial level, director-general level and a whole number of others. In this case, yes, there has been ... we are encouraged by the enthusiasm that is bing demonstrated by the new Minister in as far as fighting crime is concerned. I would like to invite all of us to encourage him and to wish him well in the execution of his very difficult task. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Question 15:
15. Mr E M Mthethwa (ANC) to ask the Deputy President: (a) What is the Government’s candid assessment of the progress, successes and challenges of the Back to Basics programme in light of the 3rd Presidential Local Government Summit held on 6 April 2017, where the second phase of the specified programme that is aimed at strengthening the system of local government was launched and (b) what will be qualitatively different in the second phase in light of the lessons learnt in the first phase? NO1020E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, over the last 30 months, this programme that we call Back to Basics in local government has become well known and has also become a well-accepted, transformative intervention. It was introduced by the former Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Pravin Gordhan, and has had an effect on all municipalities, having gained traction in the largest metros to the smallest municipality in our country. It is pleasing to note that, even in the most remote areas of our country, this programme has gained so much traction and is being talked about as the one programme that is being used to revamp our municipalities.
Even where there was a change of leadership, particularly after the August 2016 elections, we find that the parties that have come in have embraced this programme and are implementing it.
Multidisciplinary interdepartmental Back to Basics task teams have done a lot of work in most municipalities to develop municipal action plans. That is very pleasing.
An example of some of the indicators of success in the implementation of the first phase of this plan is that 92% of reporting municipalities had compliant management systems in place by the end of 2015-16. This must be seen against the backdrop of very little previous compliance with or adherence to municipal reporting systems. It shows that there is a great improvement.
The number of water service interruptions nationally decreased by more than half. That is also a good indicator of how well this Back to Basics programme is working.
However, there are still some challenges in a number of municipalities. Although there are fewer water disruptions, there are still problems in the state of water infrastructure in many municipalities, to the extent that around 10% of municipal water schemes can right now be described as being dysfunctional. These problems include poor management, lack of effective maintenance, and also unfortunately include things like vandalism and theft.
Some municipalities have had difficulty in paying their Eskom bills, and the provision of ... in areas of refuse removal has remained a challenge.
The first phase of the Back to Basics programme focused on laying the foundation for a developmental local government by doing just basic things.
Building on this foundation and all the lessons that we will have learnt, the second phase will focus on ways in which municipal programmes can become instruments of social and economic transformation to build more inclusive local community economies.
There will be greater focus on issues such as spatial planning, local economic development and opportunities to improve the financial health of municipalities.
Al in all, this has been one of the more successful programmes that government has implemented, particularly at the level where our people live. As this plan is implemented going forward, I am sure that we are going to see a totally transformed municipal government system in our country, the type that we have always hoped we would have. Thank you.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Thank you, Deputy President, for the answer. At your summit, did you also discuss the issue of those provinces that are still lagging behind in terms of the implementation of this programme?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, at the summit that was held recently, I would say that the majority of municipalities were represented. Indeed, all provinces participated. We discussed areas of our country in which there is still a lack of proper implementation of the Back to Basics programme. We also came up with plans and strategies to support those municipalities that still experience challenges.
So, that issue was discussed.
After that summit, we are expecting there to be greater and increased adherence to the Back to Basics programme and for our municipal system to be a lot better than it was a few years ago.
Indeed, the signs are already there. People who participate in the municipal system are truly enthusiastic and they need to be encouraged to continue with the good work that they are doing. Thank you.
Mr N M KHUBISA: Hon Deputy President, in the spirit of nation-building, we must admit that the masses of our people do not have access to water, roads, sanitation, houses, etc... The reason most of them are very apathetic is because they don’t receive these services or receive them as speedily as it was announced. Hopefully, 23 years into democracy, we should move away from saying, no, we are still laying the foundations, and should try to hasten service delivery.
Now, as we move into its third phase, there are issues that undermine the Back to Basics programme. One is the question of non-compliance. There is no consequence management in place. No punishment or punitive measures are taken against those who are involved in corruption and who undermine our legal prescripts. You find that nothing is done.
Secondly, the whole question of cadre deployment is still really plaguing our municipalities. I must say, Deputy President, that we do have a sizeable pool of skills, although we still need some scarce skills, especially within municipalities. Let me cite one example. Just before we went to oversight, just on the side of our Parliament, at the gate, there were about 50 young people with degrees — Bachelors degrees, Honours degrees, Masters degrees — and, when one moved nearer to them, one discovered that some of them had some scarce skills. Some of them had engineering degrees but they would tell you about being unemployed for five years. This is the issue that we are facing. What can be done to address these matters that I have referred to, hon Deputy President? Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Before I call on the Deputy President to respond, can I discourage the making of examples because, while you are making an example, you tell a story instead of asking a question. [Interjections.] Hon Deputy President.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I wanted to tell a story as well.
The SPEAKER: You have the right to tell a story because you are answering. [Laughter.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Okay. [Laughter.]
The SPEAKER: I would like Members of Parliament to ask questions.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, in answering hon Khubisa’s question ... because he started outlining some of the challenges that are faced by our municipalities ... issues such as water, roads, and sanitation. I happen to be in the Makana municipality a few days ago, and I was able to fully realise the type of challenges that some of these municipalities face. Makana municipality, particular in Grahamstown, has to deal with a 200-year old infrastructure in terms of maintaining and revamping it to make sure that the 82 000 people who live in that municipality have the best service delivery. Those are the challenges that they face and they have to address them, particularly when in comes to a very, very small budget or revenue stream that they get from the residents of the town. They have to find ways of repairing their infrastructure and maintaining it.
In relation to the skills, particularly the young people who have skills ... A number of these municipalities need highly skilled people. And hon Khubisa is correct: those highly skilled people can be found in our country. Many of our young people have qualified extremely well in some of those scarce skills. Our task is to go out there and find them. We are encouraging our municipalities to go out and find these young people and not just to deploy the usual people that they often have around them. Those skills are there throughout the length and breadth of our country. They are there in the form of highly trained financial people and highly trained engineers. We are encouraging them to advertise widely and to go and find and employ these young people so that they can make a contribution in the municipalities that they run. Thank you.
The SPEAKER: Hon Filtane ... [Interjections.] Hon Filtane is very energetic today!
Mr M L W FILTANE: Thank you, Speaker. I will not give an example; I will lead evidence! [Laughter.]
In the context of corruption, in my own municipality‚
Now, the other fundamental which is not in place and which is therefore an inhibiting factor in the whole programme of going back to basics is the absence of land. In 2013, the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act, Act 16 of 2013 was passed, but it is currently not being implemented effectively, for two reasons. The traditional leaderships — so many of them — are up in arms against it and, to make matters worse, this has now been handed over to the Presidency. How do municipalities perform any functions if they have no land for which they can plan the use of? Your answer will be highly appreciated by
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, the issue of land, particularly land for municipalities where people can have houses built for them or where they may well want to build houses themselves, is a highly contentious issue because, as our towns and cities grow, scarcity of land becomes a huge challenge. The issue of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act that the hon member has raised is a matter that is being discussed currently. Yes, there are a number of sometimes differing views but I am confident that we are going to find answers even around this very contentious issue of the implementation of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act and the issue of land as a whole. The process of discussions to try and find solutions to precisely this question is underway. I would like to ask that we give it time. Thank you.
Nkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Hon Deputy President, in some way, the continued slide of the South African economy and the pressure of local government can be attributed to persistent and significant infrastructure constraints, which not only affects business, but also the wellbeing of thousands of people who migrate to urban areas every month for a better life and basic services. How will the Back to Basics programme assist in bringing an end to disparities between rural and urban populations and ensure infrastructure development in rural areas? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The Back to Basics programme is precisely focussing on and prioritising the revamping of our municipalities as one of its key pillars. Government is committed to ensuring that the disparities between rural and urban are addressed as a matter of policy and government action. We want as much as possible to continue promoting development in rural areas because a number of our people live in those areas. Communities live there and they were hugely neglected under apartheid rule. Not that much else was done in the urban areas...
So, government is addressing both. We are also focussing on finding ways of attracting investors to get closer to rural areas so that we generate economic activity and economic growth in those areas.
This can clearly be done through a variety of ways such as agro-processing which we are focussing on, and a whole number of other activities like the agri-parks that we have embarked upon. Through this, we are hoping to create a community of progress and success, particularly at the economic level.
So this is a matter that we are very keen to continue focussing on. Thank you.
Question 16:
16. Ms S P Tsoleli (ANC) to ask the Deputy President: In light of his statement during the Debate on Vote No 1 - The Presidency, Appropriation Bill in Parliament on 4 May 2016, that it is only when we work together in a concerted and coordinated effort that we will overcome the severe economic challenges of the present and change South Africa for the better; what is his assessment of the nation’s progress towards achieving a stable, equal and prosperous South Africa from the ruins of racial division, deprivation and underdevelopment? NO1021E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: South Africa is much as we may be going through number of challenges and where many people believe that we’ve got serious challenges and problems, particularly at the economic level, it could also be at the political level; but what remains and what needs to be said is that our country is far more stable and far more prosperous and in many important respects it has become relatively more equal society than it has been for the past decades.
We emerged from a divided to adopt a Constitution that is admired all over the world and this Constitution has formed the bedrock of a new and better society for
In addition to the Chapter 9 Institutions established to support constitutional democracy, there are thriving civil society organizations that work to advance the values of our Constitution, that are made up of a wide variety of our people in their diverse nature. We have regular elections for all spheres of government, which have consistently seen higher voter turnout and have resulted in several instances in the smooth transfer of power at all levels.
We have achieved and maintained macro-economics’ stability and have managed our public resources prudently, continuously, sustainably and progressively.
We have a stable, effectively regulated and adequately capitalised financial sector and a diversified economy.
South Africans are very active in challenging the state; and indeed, challenging the private sector to give effect to the socio-economic rights that are enshrined and embodied in our Constitution.
The South African economy has expanded significantly since 1994, it is now around 85% bigger in real terms than it was in 1994. Real per-capita Gross Domestic Product, GDP, is about a third higher than it was in 1994. About 8 million more South Africans are in employment, more than we had in 1994. In other words, we have created, since 1994, 8 million and more jobs.
The number Africans and women participating in the labour market have more than doubled. The growth of the black middle-class has been accompanied by a significant drop in both absolute and relative poverty.
You may think that I’m just rattling statistics. I will invite you to go and read the publication that was put out by the South African Institute of Race Relations, who, for decades and decades have been analysing and monitoring the progress of our country and nation economically, socially and politically. And they came out with a report that confirms all this; where they said, truth be told, we have made progress in the past 23 years, whether people like it or not that is the reality of our situation.
Some people may not like the fact that we have made this progress, some people may feel that it is not sufficient progress. Let me hasten to add, we will all agree in saying that it is not sufficient and our people also agree that mush as we have made progress, it isn’t sufficient, we want more progress because as South Africans we expect the best, we expect nothing but the best and I would agree with that. Even the government acknowledges that despite the various challenges that we have, we’ve made progress but we still need to do much more.
South Africa is a more prosperous society. The benefits of economic growth have reached some but have not reached all. We have not grown enough and created sufficient jobs, that we must admit and our task now is to create more jobs to grow the economy more to ensure that new the new entrants in the labour market, particularly young people, do find space in the economy. There has been progress in making the economy more representative, but that too is not enough.
What we really at is that the glass is half full, it’s not half empty and our job is to make sure we fill this glass and make it more full so that all our people can benefit; one can put it in a different way, can reap the economic dividends of the democracy that we won in 1994. So, we have made progress. Much more still needs to be done and this government is determined to make sure that we do indeed make progress in a variety of ways so that we can continue building this nation to deliver the best of what South Africa can give to all its citizens. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Sesotho:
Mme S P TSOLELI: E re ke lebohe Motsamaisi wa dipuisano ka motsotso oo ke o fumaneng. Ke lebohe le tlhakisetso eo Motlatsamoporesidente a re nehang yona e totobetseng mmoho le diphephetso kaofela tseo Afrika Borwa e nang le tsona moruong wa
English:
Deputy President, the majority of our people – yes, they do - agree that we have travelled a remarkable journey as the nation during the past 23 years from an apartheid state to a constitutional democracy. This includes the fact that a general consensus has been reached on an economic vision of our country with the adoption, implementation and funding of the National Developmental Plan.
Deputy President, what do government envisage will be the impact of the recent downgrade by the rating agencies on the implementation of our economic strategy going forward? I thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Downgrading by two rating agencies is obviously going to have a negative impact on our country and on our economy. This, clearly is a matter that should not take lightly because once you’re downgraded you’re basically having to dig your way out of a hole; you’re in a situation where debt is going to be more expensive; where you’re going to start struggling raise debt; where debt providers are not going to be too enthusiastic to give you or provide you with debt easily and when they do they will be asking you for an arm and a leg. So, your interest payment is going to go up.
This becomes even more so of a challenge for us because our economy is not growing at the levels that are going to make it a lot easier for us to get out of the situation. But notwithstanding all that, the government and – may I add - together with our private sector partners and our labour partners are determined to continue cooperating, to make sure that the downgrading is not a long-ended type of process that we should find ways of immediately out of this downgrading scenario that we are in now. And in doing so, we should begin doing things correctly; we should address some of the issues that the debt providers have raised; in doing so we should therefore cooperate more vigorously and this is already underway, the business community as well as labour and communities are already meeting, we’ve setup a task team that is going to look at the implications of the downgrading and the Minister of Finance actively involved in his discussions and collaboration with them. Indeed the economic cluster, departments or ministries are also going to continue doing that.
We’re basically saying that all of us must look at this as a common problem; it’s not a problem of the Minister of Finance alone or problem of one person alone in government. It is a common problem which all of us must address. What is also requires is that all South Africans, through their various formations must realize that we’re facing a real challenge and real problem; and we need to have the level o decorum of talking positively about our country so that we can get out of this hole. What matters now is that we should dig our way out of the hole, come back onto ground and make sure we never get into a downgraded hole once again. [Applause.]
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Despite the self praises,
Ms L A MNGANGA-GCABASHE: On a point of order Speaker. Hon member is referring to the ANC killing Marikana people, it’s out of order Speaker and he should withdraw that.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu!
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Not yet resolved by the court.
The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, in fact, the issue of you saying it the way you’re saying it is unparliamentary, the issue of Marikana, that’s the first one.
Secondly, it’s a second totally different matter from the question that has been posed, on the basis on which you must ask a supplementary question.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, on a point of order.
The SPEAKER: No, hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I would like to take a point of order in terms of the rules of the NA if I may?
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, I’d like to finish with hon Shivambu.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But Madam Speaker you’ve given a ruling, I’d like to take a point of order if I may?
The SPEAKER: I’d like to finish with hon Shivambu, hon Steenhuisen.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: But Madam Speaker it’s [inaudible] to the question that you just raised.
The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, please give me a chance to finish with hon Shivambu.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Would you recognise me when you finish with hon Shivambu?
The SPEAKER: Let me finish with hon Shivambu.
Hon Shivambu, I want to go back, actually, myself, to relook at what you said. I would like to go back.
Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Okay. But just as a quick reminder Speaker, the Western Cape High Court has actually legitimated a phrase that says that the ANC government killed workers in Marikana. It was a long court case which Parliament ultimately lost and it’s now judgement, which you have not yet appealed.
The question is within context because we’re speaking about
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let me say, when I addressed the students at
What did I apologise for? I apologised, hon Shivambu, for the language I used. I did say I did use inappropriate or unfortunate language as expressed, yes in the emails, but I also said what I was dealing with, the intervention I was seeking to make was to try and stop further killings from happening. And for me this was sparked off [Applause.] thank you
The SPEAKER: Order hon members; let’s allow hon Deputy President to finish.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: And this for me was sparked off by the killing of the 10 people who had died earlier; and the killing of those people had happened in the most gruesome manner; and some of those people were police, the majority of them were mineworkers. I explained at that meeting that I had served mineworkers for nine years. The better part of my growing up years I had committed to working for mineworkers; I had never been a mineworker myself, I was asked to go and form a union together with other people; and I threw myself at this task.
I said it could never be that I would want to have mineworkers killed or anybody for that matter, in the way that it all happened. So, hon Shivambu that is what I apologised for. Beyond that, I also said as a leader I take counsel from what other leaders’ advice; and Mam’Winnie Mandela did raise the matter with me and she raised it publicly. She said I want to take you to Marikana and that was her initiative and I said I am willing to take counsel from Mam’Winnie and yes, accompanying her and she will lead me in this process, she will advice, she will give guidance and she will lead me.
Yes, I am prepared to go and meet the widows of those workers who were killed and the widows of the 44 people who were killed. Hon Shivambu, as soon as I made that statement, in the
Hon Shivambu, it’s a matter of just saying when it is going to happen? As a leader I’m prepared to be accountable and prepared to confront any situation where accountability is required. [Applause.]
MS D CARTER: Speaker, following the irrational decision of Mr Zuma to remove the then Minister Nene as Minister of Finance, considerable progress was made by government, business and labour with Minister Gordhan to limit the damage caused. Subsequently, Mr Zuma acted irrationally once again by severely firing Minister Gordhan in bizarre and seemingly nefarious circumstances, plunging us once again into a manufactured socio-economic and political crisis.
You, Deputy President, have been quoted as stating that Mr Zuma fired Minister Gordhan “based on an intelligence report which I believe had unsubstantiated allegations.” My question is, does this so-called intelligence report actually exist? Did Mr Zuma perfidious report as part of the reasoning for Minister Gordhan’s removal and are you aware from where this report originated and do you have a copy?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I always try not to seem like I’m avoiding answering questions or ducking and diving. This question is already a matter of legal challenge and legal processes and I would like, Madam Speaker, not to answer this question at this stage because there are legal that are been filed and this matter is under consideration right now. At a later stage I’ll be quite happy to deal with this matter, but right now there’s a legal case on this matter and I prefer that I should leave it at that.
The SPEAKER: I think it’s quite reasonable.
Mr N SINGH: Hon deputy President, yes we agree with that there’s been considerable progress in the last 23 years or so. But, however, one area where the significant progress is the field of corruption, the Centre for Violence and Reconciliation conducted some studies where they found that people in underdeveloped areas are angered by corruption. A case in point is what happened in Ladybrand, R131 million. The research further showed that the ruling party and the government are protective of comrades involved in corruption. I would like to know what is your assertion on this research view, that government is not doing enough to prevent corruption in our country and it’s becoming a cancer in our society?
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think all of us know and are aware of the fact that corruption is a major challenge in our country. [Interjections.] We are all aware that corruption is a major challenge and our people abhor corruption, they hate corruption because corruption robs them of the service delivery that they deserve and all the good things government should be doing for them.
One time I was talking about the houses that we have built. Someone who is in the building industry said to me, Deputy President you say we have built 4.3 million houses, we could have built double that if it was not for rife corruption. It is a reality, whether we want to talk about it or not, it is the reality that we confront and face; and ordinary people on the ground talk about and even if we may not want to talk about it. But the good thing in our country is that it is ventilated publicly by the free press that we have and we should pay heed to our people who continue to raise this matter because it is when that happens that we will be able to address the issue of corruption.
Clearly, corruption is so rife and it’s all over, it needs to be rooted out. It needs to be rooted out, roots and all, and we need to be focused on rooting out corruption. At government level, I happen to know that, various level of government, a lot is been done to root out corruption. A number of people who are found with their hand sin the cookie jar are being dealt with, either dismissed or arrested; and clearly this is the task must continue. With corruption you can never really say you’ve solved it all, you need to continue on and on-going basis.
But, it is our determination, focus on rooting out corruption that is going to be something that our people will give recognition to. If they think we’re doing nothing to root out corruption, there complaints will continue. Ours is to redouble our resolve to make sure that we do, indeed, not only talk about it but we should be seen to be rooting out corruption; and that is the only thing that will satisfy the millions of our people.
Question 17
17. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) to ask the Deputy President: Whether, since his reply to oral question 19 on 2 November 2016, that the current electoral system has ensured inclusivity and participation and contributed to social cohesion and nation-building, the Government will introduce electoral reform to include a constituency-based system to ensure greater accountability of public representatives to the public first and foremost; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1018E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, the government has no plans currently to introduce electoral reform to include a constituency basis. As I indicated in my reply to this House on 02 November 2016, the current electoral system has played an important role in ensuring that Parliament is not only representative ... [Interjections.]
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Go ahead.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, as I indicated in November, I said that the current electoral system has played an important role to make sure that our Parliament is not only representative but it is inclusive and also does something that is very important, that is, to promote social cohesion. It ensures that all votes are equal, that every vote counts and that the allocation of seats in the National Assembly reflects the diversity and wishes of the South African people as a whole. It is good and correct that as Parliament and as a country, we reflect on the relative strengths and shortcomings of various electoral systems.
I think that we should not dismiss this debate, it is an important debate, we should have this debate and debate it fully and thoroughly and then if we agree that this is the way to go, then we should do so. In doing so we should not just rely on clichés and think that a constituency based system necessarily in itself guarantees greater accountability of public representatives to the public. We should not be beguiled to think that is the only way in which you can have accountability to our people. Much depends on the design of the electoral system whether it is purely constituency based or whether it is a combination of a PR and a constituency system. I think this is what the late Dr Van Zyl Slabbert proposed that we have a measure of both. Much depends on the size of constituencies; on the design of the electoral system and on the balance between individual and collective accountability.
Most importantly in engaging in this discussion we need to ensure that we do not abandon what I would regard as an electoral system that has served our country very well. The current system has served this country very well and it has promoted inclusivity, even political formations of parties that would never have been represented in this Parliament if we had used a constituency base system, are represented and enhancing the voices of our people to be heard in this Parliament.
We need to remember that we had five national and provincial elections and five local government elections in which South Africans have held their public representatives to account and that in itself is a form of accountability. The success of these elections should not however, prevent us from continuing to look at the system that could best serve the purposes we have in mind. We should not just dismiss the system we have now. Let us come up with compelling views and ideas of why we should change the current system that we have. Thank you Madam Chair.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy President, it’s me. [Laughter.]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker and Deputy President, I want to agree with you, the current system we have in the moment has had its advantages and there is no debate about the fact that it has also had its own shortcomings. I support your view on the Van Zyl Slabbert report because I think that a mixed system would be helpful. The big advantage we must get to is to have a discussion about how do we effect accountability because in the current system we have seen time and time again members come to the House and when asked to do the right thing about holding someone accountable and in fact voting with their conscience, members come here and they vote according to party lines. [Interjections.]
We have seen this in the report around Nkandla, we have seen this in other motions of no confidence. The question I want to put before you is that considering the fact that the
Deputy President, I want to understand, would you agree with me that in the interest of the current electoral system and noting the
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, with a matter like this it is quite easy to play to the gallery. I think that we should enter this debate in a very sober manner because we are all here on the basis of political party mandates. That is what brought all of us here. Every single person who came here starting from the President right down to the last Member of Parliament came here on the basis of a constituency based system. In fact it gets worse because this party system plays itself in a particular way, some parties even have it in their constitutions that you may not violate your party position and I think that the Democratic Party has such a constitution where it is said that once a party line is determined then you may not differ from that party line. [Applause.]
That is why I say let us be very careful and not play to the gallery because right now we have objectively and subjectively a particular parliamentary or electoral system that has brought all of us here. It is all very easy to say no, vote your conscience or maybe what they mean is vote your party conscience because that is precisely what some parties have in their constitutions. [Applause.]
When you combine individual conscience and party conscience I do not know which one is best but the reality of the matter is that let us leave the issue that is on the table now, the vote of no confidence and not try and make it toxic by talking about the electoral system in a wishy-washy manner. What I think we should do is to say that we have a particular electoral system which has given rise to this and that problem and therefore let us have a discussion and a debate and resolve that. Once we have resolved that, we will then be able to say do we amend the Constitution or the electoral law so that we are clear as we move forward. Then at that stage, hon leader of the Opposition, you will then be able to pontificate and stand on a platform and play to the gallery and say this is what should be done, this consciousness that and so forth. That is what I believe will be most helpful otherwise we are just talking to the gallery. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms H O HLOPHE: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, in the spirit of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are you saying that the ANC Members of Parliament have forfeited their rights as public representatives? Also, the former Deputy President which is Motlhante and Mbeki have also made a call to the Members of Parliament to vote on behalf of the people of South Africa to protect this country because this country is going down to the drain. Are you going to support that view in the vote of no confidence in Zuma or you are just going to close your eyes and ears and allow this country to go down to the drain through the corrupt route.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that the hon member and I will agree on one thing that we do not want this country to go down the drain. Once the country goes down the drain you will not even find it because it will be flushed away through the sanitation system, the sewer system and I do not think that is where we want to find our country. So, obviously, we are facing great challenges, we are facing enormous challenges as a country but we need to have cool heads. We need to be sober and address these problems in a rational way and a rational way is not thinking that our country should go down the drain.
Yes, you referred to former Presidents of this country who have taken certain positions. I haven’t had a discussion with them regarding those positions. Those positions are obviously motivated by the thoughts and views they have and I think that here we are also motivated by the thoughts and views we have. My answer goes back to the first answer I gave to the hon Maimane. This is not trying to run away from any problem or challenge, we have a party system. The party system dictates that we should exercise our responsibilities in particular ways and it gets worse, as I said, our parties in a very dictatorial way in their constitutions tell their members what to do and what not to do. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Ms S J NKOMO: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, when one takes note of Dr Van Zyl Slabbert’s Commission, this commission was instituted by the then Minister of Home Affairs Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi, it had high components of social cohesion. It also needed to look into: The electoral system with a view to recommend some of the reforms that would include a PR system and a constituency based electoral model that would enhance democracy; ensuring greater accountability of public representatives to the electorate; minimise the power of political parties over their public representatives. I would like to find out from our Deputy President, at which point is the current electoral system addressing the ABC areas and has there been any other commission apart from Dr Van Zyl Slabbert’s Commission which one can benchmark where we would be going as a country? Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There has been another entity that looked at more or less the same thing that the late Dr Van Zyl Slabbert looked at. It just escapes my mind at the moment. Let me say that there has been quite a number of iterations whereas South Africans in whatever form or shape we are beginning to look at and debate the issue of our electoral system. That in itself is a good thing; we need to continue doing so. The ABC provisions or conditions that Dr Van Zyl Slabbert looked at I believe that they are currently addressed. They may not be addressed as directly as he would have envisaged through a constituency basis but in the end the issue of C minimising the political power, I think that it is.
We are a multi-party Parliament that is composed of various political parties. Through practice we have been able to demonstrate that even a majority party can have its own wishes and intents tempered by the participation of other parties, either through discussions, taking on board the suggestions they make and recognizing that all of us as leaders here we have new ideas and nobody has a monopoly on intelligence or truth. That in itself putting all of us here in this House begins to minimize the domineering power of one party over all other parties because we exchange views and we interact at a close range.
The other issue of course is accountability. I think that through this House, what has happened in this House and maybe at the end of the year we should do an assessment of how we have made this House much more accountable or better still the executive much more accountable. I believe that as a member of the executive I am accountable to this Parliament. Indeed as the executive we are accountable to this Parliament. Accountability is enhanced and representivity is to be found here in this Parliament. I think that what the late Dr Van Zyl Slabbert envisaged can be found in the current system but clearly there could be room for enhancement, we could add bells and whistles to the system we have to make it much more robust, credible and legitimate but I believe that we have a very legitimate Parliament as it is now that is accountable to our people. Thank you, sir.
Mr B T BONGO: Hon Deputy Speaker, ...
IsiZulu: 15:32:11
... ngibonga kakhulu Sekela Mongameli ngokuphendula kahle kangaka lo mbuzo lo esibhekene nawo.
English:
Hon Deputy President, this issue of voting with your conscious I do not know why it is only applying to members of the ANC and I also do not know why members of the opposition think that voting using your conscious means you must vote with the DA. I think that it is highly a misnomer. Arising from the Van Zyl Slabbert Commission there is a narrative that presupposes that the current electoral system aggregates the political influence over the influence of the people of this country. I want you to share, with the experience that we have, having drafted the Constitution yourself, to share with the people of this country some of the successes of the electoral system itself but also from where I am sitting that this system ... [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy President, you were asked to share, the question is clear.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: [Laughter.] Okay, hon Deputy Speaker, I think that the current system that we have as I have been saying is a functioning system, it enhances democracy. In here we see democracy at work and we see accountability at work as well. If people were hankering for a more constituency based system, that in itself is not a bad idea to have, it should be discussed and debated. Maybe we also need to look at how various parties deal with the architecture of how they function in their own parties, because from the ANC side where I come from, all these members who are here are linked to constituencies, each one of us has a constituency that we are linked to and that we work in and Parliament also funds the work we do in those constituencies. That in itself enhances democracy and in many ways, this is what we have envisaged that much as we have a party based system, we are only as good in what we do as we represent the aspirations of our people. Representing the aspirations of our people means and must mean that we must be continuously linked to our people, we must remain connected to our people so that there is no political or social distance between us and the people that we represent because we are here to represent them.
If we don’t our people will in five years time declare their own wishes, they will, as we go back to an election process, demonstrate whether they appreciate what we have been doing or what we have not been doing. So, there are good checks and balances for the current system but we must debate this matter and see what system, either a combination of one and the other could best work for
Question 18:
18. Ms N V Mente (EFF) to ask the Deputy President: (a) What measures has he taken to ensure that sex workers are not as susceptible to HIV infections as they are now, in light of the 2017-2022 new Strategic Plan for HIV, TB and Sexually Transmitted Infections which has highlighted that sex workers are the most vulnerable group as far as the new HIV infections are concerned because of the continued criminalisation of sex work as about 130 000 sex workers in this country, many of whom are women, resort to sex work because of a lack of economic alternatives and (b) what is the Government’s position on the decriminalisation of sex work? NO1022E
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, as the SA national Aids Council, Sanac, we launched the National Sex Work Sector Plan last year, in March. Amongst other things, this plan is aimed at reducing the spread of HIV amongst sex workers. This was largely in response to the challenge that our country faces in relation to the sex workers being the most vulnerable – the highest vulnerable in the country in that it was found that 70% of them continue to contract HIV.
The plan provides a standardised minimum package of services that we would like to see provided by all implementing partners within and outside of government. This co-package of services has been designed to encompass the multifaceted lives of sex workers. It calls for national co-ordination of a range of interventions that are meant to respond to this challenge and these are biomedical, their behavioural and social as well as structural barriers that continue to confront sex workers on a daily basis.
Now, evidence indicates that effective HIV prevention, the care and treatment packages for sex workers, their clients, those who use those sex services and their children should be tailored to local context and that such interventions should be led and implemented by the sex workers themselves.
Therefore, the sex work sector plan seeks to support sex workers not only with health care services but also support them in as far as ensuring that their human rights are protected and advanced, their psychosocial and economic rights are also advanced; the empowerment of sex workers in a variety of ways economically and otherwise is also advanced.
Many of us may know that the South African law commission was given a task to look at law reform in as far as the possible decriminalisation of sex work. The law commission has completed its work and the cabinet has decided that the report on the work that they have done should be released for public comments as part of a broader consultation process. Once comments have been received from the public government will finalise a position on the various options that are proposed by the law commission.
As this work continues I encourage all sectors of society to support the national sex work sector plan understanding that reduce infection rates amongst sex workers where in the end impact on infection rates in the general population while ensuring that their constitutional rights of sex workers are protected.
This is an important task that all of us need to embark on because sex workers are just as great and good citizens as all of us. They need their rights to be protected and we need to join them in ensuring that all the rights and services that they should have are advanced, protected and enhanced. So, it’s a call on all of us to join in this task of making sure that this plan is implemented and implemented effectively.
When will the law commissions report be issued; it will be issued soon. It is going to happen. How soon is going to be very soon and it is going to give us all an opportunity to discuss the various – if I am protected from those who are hauling about the plan, this ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, please be quiet. You can’t be throwing words like this around.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Now, this is going to be released very soon and we invite ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! You are out of order! What is wrong with you? Hey!
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We invite all South Africans to participate in the sharp issue that is going to arise. The decriminalisation of sex work or not decriminalising it, that is going to be an important discussion that all of us as South Africans should have. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms N V MENTE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Please allow me by starting with recognising our Sex Worker Education and Advocacy Task, Sweat, organisation up there in the gallery, from the
Deputy President with the answer that you have provided acknowledging that we have a vulnerable group and you are sitting with the law reform findings in the cabinet, we just want the day as to when and where are you releasing it? Now, the current law in South Africa allows men to buy sex but it criminalises women for selling sex who are at work! How is that allowed in a democratic country? When are we decriminalising sex work. We are talking about women who are at job. They are at work and they are not doing anything wrong. So, we must protect women in
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, clearly this topic evokes a lot of interest.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I notice that, hon Deputy President, and I wish hon members could be quiet because your noise is not improving your arguments at all.
The DEPUTY President: For a minute, I thought I was being booed but it is quite clear that people are talking about this in an excited way, because this evokes a lot of interest and excitement amongst people. So, Deputy Speaker, the hon Mente has raised an issue and it is quite a serious issue. It is a matter that the SA Law Commission has dealt with and in their report they obviously go deep into this matter and they are going to put out a number of options.
The reason that the Cabinet felt that this matter should be released for public discussions and debates is precisely that, that there are different views amongst South Africans on this matter; whether to decriminalise or to retain the criminalisation.
Now, when it comes to criminalisation it is quite buzzer in the sense that sex workers themselves say that this is so contradictory because on the one hand the government hands out condoms to sex workers and everyone. So, sex workers participate in getting these condoms but as soon as they have them – and these are tools of their trade and once they have these tools of their trade - police are waiting for them around the corner. They arrest them and confiscate the tools of their trade. And that is why they say how can a government act in such a contradictory manner? The one hand gives us condoms the other hand takes the condoms away from us while we are conducting our business and our work.
Now, these are matters that need to be discussed properly amongst all of us as South Africans. And it is quite a serious matter because a number of other people have religious views on this matter others have moral views, and others have ethical and a whole number of other views; cultural views and some party views, and you name it. Some parties have views on this matter and others have gender views, and what have you.
So, what we need to do, once the report is released, and it’s going to be released soon, hon Members, and it is going to be released soon. Thereafter, the debate must rage and out of the debate that will rage the government will then be able to arrive at a conclusion which in the end will finally be brought here in Parliament to be debated. And thereafter, we may have to amend the law into one shape or form or another. So, that is the invitation to all South Africans to participate in this very important matter. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Ms A M DREYER: Mr Deputy Speaker, what the Deputy President has said sounds all very good and well, but you have got actually put your money where your mouth is. The problem is with this plan whilst it’s a great plan, is that it’s not being implemented and the reason for the lack of implementation is that your government is not committed one cent to any of the components of this plan.
Let me tell you exactly which departments are involved: The office of the Deputy President, Social development, justice, women, small business development, trade and industry and the SAPS have not committed one cent to this programme. They are relying on unreliable donor funds for those parts of that programme that have been implemented; so my question is, when will the Deputy President ensure that funds are committed to this programme by all the relevant departments and by what date? [Applause.]
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, well I am glad that you have done your homework and have outlined all the departments that are involved. The office of the Deputy President is not an implementing department. I just want you to know. [Interjections.] Listen first. That office does not even have money to implement anything. Just be aware of that. However, I am quite happy that you are saying from your knowledge, your either research or evidence the plan is not being implemented. I find that hard to believe, but I am going to follow this one up and then when I come here next you can ask me the question again to see the extent to which this matter is being implemented. Because I launched it and in launching it, it was backed by funding; funding was available.
When I launched it the active participants were the sex workers themselves who were very pleased that finally government is coming to their aid and assistance. So, I will follow this one up and I will not agree or deny what you are saying but I will find out and comeback to you.
Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, let me once again thank you for your intervention in
Yes, I agree with you, Deputy President, that a lot of work has been done by the SA Law Commission and one such intervention was where South Africa had proposed even in the SADC region, where countries were calling for criminalisation, a law on HIV specific, and South Africa actually successfully opposed that which was on the interest of all the sex workers who were mainly the target. Thank you very much for that.
Deputy President, it is quite obvious that sex workers at the moment are being harassed and intimidated, especially by the police officers. Now, while this entire process is unfolding, do you think there is something that government can do to protect the sex workers until this matter is resolved, from any further harassment and intimidation?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Speaker, clearly the harassment of sex workers in my view should stop because they are people just like all of us and if they are transgressing various laws then they need to be dealt with. But, as far as the work that they do, one would like to see a situation where, yes we go through this matter and finalise it. And thereafter, their situation should be addressed once again. So, it is a suggestion from the hon Shaik Emam. It is something that I think in a number of other areas is sort of being observed but the law is the law. Currently the law in our country prohibits that type of economic activity. Hence I spoke the two hands of the law that do not talk to each other. On the one hand we assist and on the other hand we arrest. That should not be a matter that we easily get involved in. Thank you.
Ms C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, according to the 19th tradition of the SA health review
Deputy
To me it feels like we are presently capitulating to the well-funded campaigns pushing the interest of the multibillion dollar industries run by organised crime syndicates. We have to be more creative than we are being now and we cont just sell women and children down the drain into even worse predicament than they already are. Thank you.
The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, the issue that the hon member is raising is precisely the debate that we should have. Other countries and she sighted one, have decriminalised sex work in part. They criminalise the buying and decriminalise the selling. Other countries do it the other way round. Now, those are the options that are open.
Other countries continue to criminalise the selling as well as the buying. If you are both found in the act you are both arrested and charged. In other cases they only look at the buyer and charge the buyer and let the seller scot-free. So those are the debates that we should have as a country. And if you like the Northern hemisphere countries have opted for one form or another. And the doing is still out on how effective criminalising the buying rather than selling is most effective and works better. In the end, I would say let the debate be entered into. Let us debate this matter, discuss it and see how best we come out as South Africans. In the end it is going to be a South African solution to a global challenge and problem.
The issue of the number of sex workers in our country is more-or-less agreed as well as children who are brought into prostitution or sex work, so once we have had this debate we will be able to give maximum protection to those vulnerable communities who require the protection of the law and the Constitution. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, Deputy President. That concludes questions to the Deputy President. [Applause] The next item on the Order Paper is motion in the name ... [Interjections.] Yes hon member, what are you rising on?
Ms D CARTER: Deputy Speaker, just before we continue with the rest of the programme, I notice something today in the House which is quite disturbing. And I think that there is actually two points; and we should put it on record that your talk button – the speaker’s list has been reset during the actual question time by the speaker. I pushed the button and the light went on and she looked at me and switched it off. She cleared it and we pushed the button again.
I, please, want to make a request that if it is not available that for today’s sitting that from question 13 to question 15 the speakers list are made available and also for any reset that was done in between. And that it should be a standing order that the speakers list must be made available for all political parties. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, it’s done. Hon members, can I make a ruling on this. [Interjections.] Hon member, you to take that matter formerly to the rules because I think you are making an appeal, and so on. However, I will say that as Presiding Officers we ensure that we have an inclusive list in all the lists of political parties that ask questions. So, that is the decision that we make from here. But you can present that to the rules for us to look at it, and so on. We will give you an additional answer there.
Source: Unrevised transcript, Hansard.
