Extracts from the debate on President Jacob Zuma's State of the Nation Address, Parliament, Tuesday, February 17 2015

I

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson, two weeks ago I visited the town of Jan Kempdorp. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, order, order! Hon members! Can we allow the hon member to continue with the debate?

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Let me start again. Hon Chairperson, two weeks ago, I visited the town of Jan Kempdorp in the Northern Cape following the alleged rape, brutal assault and racial abuse of a learner by his peers at a local high school.

During the visit, members of the community informed me that racial tensions in the town had been simmering for many years. The situation in Jan Kempdorp is in no way an isolated one and occurs frequently across South Africa. Just yesterday, there were reports of learners being subjected to racial abuse at a school in Witbank, Mpumalanga. It is tragic that 21 years into our democracy, racism is still rife in South Africa. Racism is one of our country's biggest wounds festering untreated. We cannot continue to pretend that racism only exists in specific enclaves. It is not a problem unique to any geographic location. Racism is a problem in Cape Town, Johannesburg and in Durban. It is a problem in every single corner of South Africa. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Our young people are unfortunately not immune to the evil that is racist beliefs. Sadly, many children in our country are raised by racist parents who teach them hate. It certainly does not help that some schools still perpetuate this hate by segregating learners according to race. We cannot have the situation where our young people are being taught to hate by parents and schools.

It is time for government to take a tough stance against racism and a tough stance was taken against racism in the ANC. The hon Mahambehlala stood here earlier on saying black people in the DA can't think for themselves. [Interjections.] That is apartheid thinking and it is racist. [Interjections.] The ANC must also deal with its racism. [Applause.] As the DA, we are taking a tough stance against racism. We have made it clear that we are not a party for racists. Racists are not welcome in the DA! [Interjections.] [Applause.]

It has to be made clear in the minds of our children that there are dire consequences for racist behaviour. In Germany, education is used to make sure that new generations will never forget the Holocaust. [Interjections.] The teaching of the Holocaust is not limited to historical facts, but makes sure that young Germans appreciate the values and institutions that protect freedom and democracy. We need something similar in South Africa.

In addition, I think it is important for municipalities around the country to initiate dialogues about racism, like the Mayor of Cape Town.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is that a point of order, hon member? Just take a seat, hon member. Can you use your mike, sir?

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE (ACE MAGASHULE): Hon Chair, is it parliamentary for somebody who is not a South African to participate in the Parliament of South Africa? [Laughter.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, no, no, I have not even made a ruling. Order, order! Hon members, order! Hon members, are you going to allow me to make a ruling on the matter? Hon Chief Whip of the DA, are you going to allow me to make ruling on the matter? Will you please allow me to make a ruling on the matter? The ruling is as follows: That is not a point of order and I will allow the hon member to continue with the debate.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order: Members of this House, as you know, are elected through specifications laid out in the Constitution. He has made an allegation that she is not a South African. He must withdraw. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, no, no, there is no point. I don't know what this level of excitement is about. I don't know why we are excited about this, because ...  [Interjections.] Maybe I must keep quite and listen to you. The point is very clear. I allowed the member to speak on a point of order and the member raised his point in a question form. In my response I then made a ruling to say that that is not a point of order and I am allowing the member to continue with the debate.

Mr G A GARDEE: Chairperson, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: May I recognise you, hon Gardee?

Mr G A GARDEE: Not withstanding the fact that the Premier of the Free State raised a point of order which was in a question form, there was an insinuation that he is making for the public to know that there is a member who is not a South African and he must be called to order.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, please take your seats. I have made a ruling. My ruling is that that is not a point of order. Therefore, I am not going to entertain it and I am allowing the member an opportunity to continue with the debate. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: May I address you please, House Chair? With respect, House Chair, there have been rulings and if one looks at through the annotated digest of rulings, that is unparliamentary even in the form of a rhetorical question to make an allegation that a member is not honourable. [Interjections.] By saying that the hon Van Damme is not a South African citizen is saying that she has perpetuated fraud and it casts aspersion on her character - let me please finish, Chair. All I'm asking is that you ask the hon member to withdraw the statement. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, as I'm sitting here, I did not hear a statement that alleges ... [Interjections.] No, no, no, we don't have to get excited about it. There was no statement that alleged, but rather there was an order that came through a form of question on which I made a ruling to say it is not a point of order. I'm allowing the member to continue speaking. Can we continue with the debate, hon member?

Ms P T VAN DAMME; Hon Chairperson, a couple of weeks ago ...

Mr S J MASANGO: Chairperson, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you challenging my ruling? Okay fine. Hon member, may I therefore advise you that if you are not happy with my ruling ...

Mr S J MASANGO: No, it is not about the ruling; I'm rising on another point of order.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Is it another point of order that is different from this one?

Mr S J MASANGO: Yes, Chairperson, according to you, you are saying it was a question ... [Interjections.] ... and according to this sitting - listen to me, Chairperson, don't shake your head - when you ask a question, you first ask if the member will take my question before he can ask a question. Now, according to him he did not even ask if the member is prepared to take a question, he just made a statement. I want your ruling on that one. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, hon members, hon members, I have made a ruling. My ruling is that that point of order that was raised by the member was not a point of order. I requested the member to take his seat and allow the member to continue with the debate. Hon Van Damme, please continue with the debate.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Chairperson, Hon Chairperson ...

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon Chairperson, I was just wondering if the hon member can start from the beginning, I have forgotten everything that she has said. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Okay, you may take your seat, hon member.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, I respect the fact that you have the right to rule. We disagree with the ruling. Can we ask that you examine Hansard and come back to the House at a later stage with a more determined ruling on the matter?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just as you are asking me to do that, that is exactly what I'm asking you to say that if you are aggrieved by my ruling, there are processes that you can follow in order to deal with this. However, for now, I have made a ruling and I'm ordering the member to continue with the debate. Would you continue, hon Van Damme?

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Hon Chairperson, a couple of weeks ago there were foreign nationals in this country who were attacked and murdered and you should be ashamed, Premier of the Free State, to stand up here on Xenophobia, "sies", "sies"! [Interjections.] As I was saying ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Damme, please address me, even if you are not looking at me, please address me.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: Sorry, hon Chairperson, the Premier of the Free State should be ashamed of himself, "sies"! [Interjections.] As I was saying ...

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon Van Damme, the word "sies" ...  [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Deputy Chair, you have over and over insisted that language that is not in conformity with this House should not be allowed. "Sies" is not in conformity with this House. [Interjections.]

Ms P T VAN DAMME: I withdraw "sies" and I say his behaviour is disgusting. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Damme, hon Van Damme ... Order! Order! Order, hon members! Hon members, order! Hon Van Damme, please withdraw the word "sies". [Interjections.]

Ms P T VAN DAMME: I withdraw "sies"; I did withdraw "sies".

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I asked the speaker to withdraw "sies".

Ms P T VAN DAMME: I withdraw that.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Van Damme! Hon Van Damme!

Ms P T VAN DAMME: I withdraw the word "sies".

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Please continue with the debate.

Ms P T VAN DAMME: As I was saying on the issue of racism. I think it is important for municipalities around the country to initiate dialogues about racism like the Mayor of Cape Town, Patricia de Lille, has done. Such dialogues are of course not a cure all solution, but could inform any policy interventions required.

I think it is also time to realise that our education system is not doing nearly enough for our young people, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Over the past 20 years, we have made significant headway in expanding education access to more learners. However, learners from disadvantaged backgrounds are still being left behind.

If we calculate the 2014 matric pass rate, taking into consideration the learner retention rate, it reveals that in essence, only 1 in 3 matric learners passed. Almost a quarter of the total bachelor passes were produced by schools considered more affluent, while only 1 in 10 were produced by the poorer schools.

Due to insufficient funding being allocated to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS, those learners from disadvantaged backgrounds who passed may not even make it to tertiary institutions. Like racism, inequality in our education system is still rife.

There was little or no detail in the President's state of the nation address about how this inequality would be dealt with. In fact, education was only mentioned three times, focusing almost exclusively on education infrastructure upgrades.

We will be taking the announcements on infrastructure upgrades with buckets of salt. [Time expired]. [Applause.]

[CUT]

II

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Chair of the House ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Floyd, what is your point of order?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Thoko, can I address you on an issue that I have risen here to speak?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, you can address me. Could you please not point at a member, but speak through the Chair.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes, through you Chair, the gentleman who is sitting down here is eating his own medicine.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, could we please stop interjecting so that I can hear the point of order. What is your point of order, hon member?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The gentleman who is sitting there ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, can you address me on the point of order in which you are rising?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The point of order is that we have a debate about the state of the nation address. This guy stands up and ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Sorry, there is no guy he is an hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: The hon member who is questionable stood up here to disrupt a proper proceeding of this. So he is eating his own medicine and he must ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Shivambu, can you take your seat. What you have just made is not a point of order. Hon premier, can you proceed.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE:  Hon Chair, I am not worried at all ... [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: Hon Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon premier, can you take your seat.

Mr G A GARDEE: Sit down. The Chairperson said sit down.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): No, Gardee!

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: You are not the Chair.

Mr G A GARDEE: The Chairperson said that sit down. Hon Chairperson, it is unfortunate if I may address you in that a member of this House was addressing the House and the premier stood up and asked if she is a South African. Now, we also want to ask a question from him. He did not withdraw, he was not made to withdraw and he was not even reprimanded for that. Could he be reprimanded so that he can continue very well?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon Gardee you are not rising on a point of order. The Deputy Chair of the NCOP ruled on that matter and we are not going back to that ruling. Hon premier, could you please address the House. Probably he will be able to address you if you could give him a chance and listen.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: I am not bordered at all. This is what the opposition always does.  President, the people of South Africa have full confidence in you. I think as the President of the country, the Deputy President and the ANC, you must just stay focused.

Let me tell South Africans about the history. [Interjections.] Yes, there is number one in South Africa and that is President Jacob Zuma, not Hellen Zille. [Applause.] There are people who like and love to be called presidents and all of them joined the ANC. When they were no more leaders, when they were no more premiers, and when they were no more mayors or councillors, they start their parties because this title of a president could actually be given by everybody. All of them, from Julius Malema to the rest, when they were in the ANC ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members! Hon Premier of the Free State, could you please address the member of this House as hon Julius and not by his first name.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: That's convention, he is hon Malema. All of them when they were in the ANC, they said to South Africans that the ANC has delivered. Some of them said my blood is black, green and gold and I will die and kill for Zuma. [Applause.] All of them may pretend today - from the DA to the hon Malema - they have interacted with the Guptas because the Guptas are business people in South Africa - all of them. [Applause.]

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, Chair: It is extremely wrong for the hon Magashule to suggest that I have interacted with the Guptas.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: You have!

Mr J S MALEMA: I have never interacted with the Guptas. President Zuma can confirm that. I don't know those people, please. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon Malema, your point has been noted even though it was not a point of order, but a point of clarity to the premier

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: One day I will tell South Africans how we interacted with the Guptas. I was with the hon Julius Malema the first time we met them.

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, Chair: Ace, you are lying. Ace is lying. I have never interacted with the Guptas. The person who asked for a meeting between the Guptas and I was President Zuma's son, and I refused. Vuyiswa can tell you that. I have never interacted with the Guptas. Stop lying, Ace; stop lying.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members!

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: Do you see, hon members ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, could we please be quiet so that we can hear one another.

Mr Z M D MANDELA: Chair, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to call another member of the House that he is lying?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): As we all know it is not parliamentary to say that another member is lying and we dealt with that matter earlier on. Can I please ask members to remember the rulings of this House and also the protocols and procedures. Can we also listen to one another so that we can conclude the debate on time.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: I was saying that there is no need to worry about cadre deployment. When the DA came into power in the Cape Town Metro, the former municipal manager Mqoqi was immediately expelled by the DA. There is one municipal manager called Bruce Kannemeyer who I still have his letter when he was dismissed by the DA. [Interjections.] That letter will be for public. The letter said:

You are an ANC member and there is no way you will carry out the policies of the DA therefore, you are dismissed.

[Applause.]

There is nothing to worry about the DA. The ANC and the President must govern this country without fear. We have been democratically elected by the majority of the people of South Africa ... [Interjections.]

Mr I OLLIS: Chairperson, would you ask the premier if he can take a question about his website because I can't find it?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon premier, would you take a question?

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: I will be wasting my time.

Mr I OLLIS: It's blank.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: The problem with South Africa today is that as we were building a nation and reconciling our people, we never went for those people who murdered and killed. And some of them are hon members who were in the SA Defence Force who maimed and killed our own brothers and sisters here in South Africa, Lesotho and Namibia. They are sitting here with us in this House.

Mr G A GARDEE: On a point of order, Madam Chair: Is it parliamentary for a member who is speaking at the podium to cast aspersions on the hon members because none of them were involved in the killings of our people in Marikana here? Thank you.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: Some of the hon members ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Gardee, can you also be patient as you ask others to be. Hon premier in his speech did not refer to any specific member. However, hon premier, I would ask that we should not use references that might be inferred to others in a manner that cast aspersions. Can we continue with the speech.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: Madam Chair, it is just that it is factual and it is true that some of the hon members here during apartheid participated in murdering our brothers and sisters. It is the truth. We can site them and call them by names, but it is unfortunate we cannot do it now.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon members, can we please lower our voices to listen to one another. Hon premier, could you please proceed with your speech.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: Hon President, even President Nelson Mandela, the icon of the entire world, was never wanted by the opposition party, especially the DA. Former President Thabo Mbeki was never wanted by the opposition, especially the DA. There is no way that they will want you. There is no way they would love and want the ANC to rule this country because their time is over. There is no more time for "klein miesies en klein baas" [boss and madam]. That is the problem of South Africa today. Some of the hon members are still longing for those days of apartheid to be called "basies en miesies" [bosses and madams]. That time is gone and it will never come back. South Africa is moving forward. It is a nonracial, nonsexist and a united democratic organisation.

In terms of local government, I heard one of the members of the opposition talking about provinces. This member of the opposition, the DA, is not saying, hon Julius [Interjections.] that all the provinces of South Africa - especially those under the ANC - have water, electricity and housing. Last year, in the Eastern Cape every week, once a week, they delivered a school. Every year the ANC government through the national fiscus, is building houses in each an every municipality including the municipalities of the DA because . . . [Interjections.]

Mr K Z MORAPELA: I just want to check whether the hon premier is prepared to take a question because Brandfort does not have water as we are speaking?

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: The hon member Morapelo knows that he was the spokesperson of the premier and we fired him. [Laughter.] And he knows the reasons why we fired him.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members. I take it that the premier was saying he was not going to answer your question.

Mr K Z MORAPELA: But it is not true that I was his ... [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order, Chair: You can't do that because the premier is behaving in an unparliamentary manner. You asked him if he could take the question and he says other unnecessary things. Instead of you asking him: are you going to take a question, yes or no? I know for a fact that if it was a member of another political party you would have dealt with that person harshly ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema, hon Malema ... [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Please, ask Ace to behave. This is not a legislature, but a national Parliament.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Malema, can you stand up. Can you address the premier as hon? I did the same on your behalf so can you do it.

Mr J S MALEMA: He is hon Ace Magashule.

Mr K Z MORAPELA: Could it be on record that the premier is lying. I was never his spokesperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you please withdraw the word lying because it is not parliamentary.

Mr K Z MORAPELA: He is intentionally incorrect to say that I was his spokesperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, can you withdraw.

Mr K Z MORAPELA: I withdraw the ... [Interjections.]

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: Well, let me leave the hon Kgotso Morapela because he knows that he was indeed the leader of the Youth Commission ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member! Hon Gardee, can you please not exchange words with members in the other side of the House. Hon member, what point are you rising on?

Mr N S MATIASE: I rise on a point of order to call on the hon the Premier of the Free State.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Yes, can you address the Chair and not the premier.

Mr N S MATIASE: He should not claim easy victories and tell lies. Kgotso Morapelo was never a spokesperson of the Free State. I want to challenge him to produce evidence that Kgotso Morapelo was once or ever his spokesperson in the Free State because I am from the Free State. That is a matter of fact.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order hon members! The issues of producing evidence to one another I am sure will happen out of this House and be provided to you.

Ms H O MAXON: Chair, 10 minutes of the premier has come and gone. Can he move on.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, can we please not rise on spurious point of orders. Hon premier, may you please round up your speech.

Mr P G MOTEKA: Point of order, Chair: The Premier of the Free State has misinformed the public because people of Sekhukhune are not drinking water and he is saying the ANC has delivered water in all the municipalities. He must withdraw that.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon member. Can you take your seat. Can we allow the premier to conclude his speech.

The PREMIER OF THE FREE STATE: Hon Chair, simple logic tells us that there is no way that you can address all the challenges of South Africa at once. That is why the ANC says tomorrow will still be better than today. There are people who got houses in 1995, there are people who got houses in 2012, and there are people who will get houses today and tomorrow. There isn't in life and in anywhere and in any part of the world where you deliver everything. This is because people don't want us to talk about apartheid and what apartheid did to us.

The ANC has indeed electrified South Africa. It is only during the term of President Jacob Zuma where we now have a long-term plan. That is visionary leadership. The long-term plan, the National Development Plan - Vision for 2030 has been adopted by the masses of this country. I am not worried about these political parties. [Applause.] It is through and under the leadership of the ANC under the leadership of Jacob Zuma that South Africa for the first time has envisaged this infrastructure plan. For the first time in the history of. . . [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Source: Unrevised transcript, Hansard

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