Text of an interview by Raenette Taljaard, director of the Helen Suzman Foundation, with Helen Zille, Democratic Alliance leader and Western Cape premier

RAENETTE TALJAARD: What are your impressions of the State of the Nation debate?

HELEN ZILLE: The tone was very warm and reconciliatory. I think President Zuma wants to try and get some seamlessness between the Mandela presidency and his own, and present the Thabo Mbeki years as some kind of aberration from the ANC tradition. He is genuinely a very warm man and generous man, instinctively. But those attributes don't necessarily translate into a defence of the Constitution or the independence of institutions of state, or the capacity to understand what makes an economy grow and how one best tackles poverty.

There are profound contradictions inherent in what he says. I think he set himself unmeetable targets, especially based on the contradictions in the different approaches of his various ministers and ministries, and the lack of any obvious coherence or co-ordination between them.

Nothing the President has said or done gives me any comfort that he's [grasped] the heart of the problem, which is lack of capacity to fuel the economic growth that is needed on the skills base we've got, and to ensure that we can absorb more and more people into a productive economy, while generating the resources we need to invest in the infrastructure that will further fuel economic growth.

TALJAARD: What will your tone and approach be to the ANC and the other parties in the Western Cape?

ZILLE: I don't think that there's only one tone that you should have. Sometimes it has to be very confrontational, sometimes it can be very conciliatory, depending on the issue and the results you're trying to achieve.

TALJAARD: Do you believe the critique about the composition of your cabinet should be taken seriously?

ZILLE: Yes, of course. I've said from the outset that it is a significant challenge, and we are working on it. But I also said it was rich of the ANC, of all parties, to be criticising me on that basis, given its record, in all kinds of ways. I got into trouble for saying precisely which ways.

TALJAARD: And your views on COSATU [taking a dispute on it to] NEDLAC [National Economic Development and Labour Council]?

ZILLE: It's a political move. COSATU's own track record of advancing women is threadbare, to put it mildly. In all their years of existence they haven't had a woman president. The South African Clothing and Textile Workers Union has a 70% woman membership; the General Secretary, the Deputy Secretary General and the Organising Secretary are male. So it's purely grandstanding.

I do think these are useful discussions, and it's even more useful to say what the real issues are that oppress women in South Africa. That is why I've elevated the issue of women, children and disability to the Premier's Office. The thing that oppresses women most fundamentally in South Africa is that so many become mothers at an incredibly young age without no skills or capacity for independence. They are captive of the grant system or an irregular income from a man who often doesn't take his parenting responsibilities seriously. And then they are trapped in a vicious cycle of lack of opportunity, usually for the rest of their lives. That is the biggest, single issue that oppresses women in South Africa, and the sexual, physical and psychological abuse that goes with that.

TALJAARD: What are your views on future political realignment, and the logjam that still exists on race?

ZILLE: The election results served to re-boost the prospects of coalition governments. There are now quite clearly two banks of the river of South African politics: the ANC and the DA. And I've always characterised the difference as the open opportunity society for all versus the closed crony society for comrades.

I think this election put paid to the ANC's ideal of representing a rainbow nation. We're working very hard on establishing that mantle for ourselves, but I'm aware of how difficult it is to break through the barriers of identity politics.

Coalitions are an important way to go forward with that. We've achieved a lot with the coalition in Cape Town, and we've seen a very strong convergence between the parties that were in the coalition. I increasingly believe that convergence will increase as the ANC's hate speech and race mobilisation has less and less cogency over time. So the possibility of coalitions is greater than it ever was, and we will certainly work towards them.

TALJAARD: How do you see the future of, particularly, DA/COPE relations?  And how do you see the picture of coalitions vis-à-vis the overall relationships, including the DA and the other, now much smaller, players?

ZILLE: I'd like COPE to have been quite a lot stronger than it is. I was hoping it would be a rapidly stabilising factor. It looks to be far less stable and capable of projecting itself than we had anticipated. In certain areas, COPE is disintegrating and washing back on to the ANC bank of the river. And I think the ANC has a deliberate strategy to get them back.

But that can't last, because the incapacity to deliver on the objectives Jacob Zuma has set himself, and to mobilise behind a key set of priorities without getting deflected from them by a lot of internal political imperatives, are going to cause all the contradictions that led to the establishment of COPE to burst forth again. I think that that will happen more and more, until the magnet of identity politics is less strong than the magnet of issue-based politics.

TALJAARD: How do you see the tactical split between coalition politics, creating a break through the racial logjam through proxies, and the other path, which tries to do it alone and solely on the brand identity?

ZILLE: It will be both. We've had very courageous black public representatives who've really stood up for us, some coming pretty close to winning wards in particular areas. That shows me that it is possible.

On the other hand, identity politics is still incredibly powerful, as it is everywhere in the world. Certainly coalitions help to take away many of the fears and misconceptions. Anybody who's known my history, and what we have done as a party, will know that we're not wanting to bring back apartheid. But if you listen enough to the MK Military Veterans Association you will think that that is actually our number one policy priority. Through coalitions you move all those misconceptions and fears.

The irony is that the DA is not the party that runs fear politics, it's actually the ANC. We've got no interest at all in driving people asunder on the basis of race. To do that would be to doom ourselves to perpetual opposition. The ANC has every interest in driving fears of the African majority, because if they simply divide us forever on the basis of race, they're always in power. That's where fear politics is coming from and no one must make any mistake about that.

They went around the entire election saying Zille will drive black people in the Western Cape back to the Eastern Cape. Complete and utter nonsense. Many black people believed it.

TALJAARD: Referring to the current global financial crisis, one can argue that there's also an ideological logjam in South African politics. What are your views of that perception, and the extent to which the DA's policy platform is grappling with what it would take to build a post-crisis economy for South Africa, leveraging both the market and the state?

ZILLE: Firstly, commentators think that policy alternatives inform election choices. They may do for a tiny, tiny percentage of South Africans, but for the most part, they don't. But I think the debate is often far more nuanced and sophisticated than many people think. It is not a market versus state debate. For example, the classic developmental state hinged on the debate about the role of the state and market, and how the state can facilitate market capacity to grow the economy optimally. That is the basic developmental state position.

And the key insight in the developmental state position applied so that it produces results in the form of growth, and skilled people to take advantage of the opportunity of growth. The state understood the priorities, got the brightest and the best in to help leverage it and help facilitate it. And invested hugely in education to match the skills to the growth opportunities. And the state often led by infrastructure development in the key areas where it was needed to lead growth in particular market segments.

That is the kind of debate we should be having in South Africa. What is the role of the state, what is the role of the private sector? We can't seem to get back to that, because the ANC's notion of a developmental state is an incapacitated state deciding which sectors the market must go into and which not. And failing to lead the infrastructure that drives the growth in the critical market sectors that can gain a competitive advantage in all circumstances.

They've completely misunderstood the core philosophy of the developmental state, as far as I understand it. And they keep on letting the goal be displaced by other objectives. The goal does not become what we do to achieve economic growth and development for all, it becomes how much cadre deployment can we do?

TALJAARD: Do you think the structural changes at Cabinet level will make any difference?

ZILLE: I think we'll have continuous goal displacement unless political favours are met. And I can't see any indication that the contradictions between the central planning ministry and the other agendas driving economic development ministries are going to be resolved any time soon. They're informed by a different set of ideological assumptions and different notions of what the developmental state does. 

TALJAARD: The countervailing argument could rely on the Constitution to look at the powers of the President in terms of his overall lead in the executive authority and control over Cabinet, and by association, the link the Minister within the Presidency [Trevor Manuel] therefore could potentially have as a primus inter pares. Do you see that as playing a role?

ZILLE: One has to see whether Trevor Manuel will be able to be a primus inter pares, or whether that will be Gwede Mantashe. I think that's actually where the power is, because the ANC sent such a clear message about recalling presidents and redeploying people and doing everything they want to do. The power has shifted profoundly to Luthuli House and that tiny little group of unelected, unaccountable people.

TALJAARD: Commentators are saying that you have a unique opportunity to leverage a different delivery system in the Western Cape. What are your goals and aspirations?

ZILLE: The opportunities are very good to the extent that we can make co-operative governance work. In government in the City [before the election] we were blocked every time we required co-operative governance. And we've seen another example, in the attempted transfer of all the province's land to national before we took over here. It was just another method of making it really difficult for us to deliver on key issues, because land is the key resource.

So areas that need co-operative governance, such as housing, planning, public transport, community safety, will take a big leap forward. It takes three or four years to show any results from getting the basics right, but we can get the basics right.

So to get the big, systemic things right, first thing we did was to get the budget aligned with the City's budget and trim the fat out of it, R426 million worth of various things. Then we start looking at the strategic partnerships. All that has been very exciting. There's lot of potential. Many of the City's outcomes have been achieved through strategic partnerships, and now we can broaden those. Where our strategic partnerships are functional, they are achieving much, much better results than we're achieving on our own.

TALJAARD: We've heard very strong signals about co-operative governance, but there seems to be a potential clash of vision between the ANC and DA on this issue. This question, and the clear announcement that there will be a single public service reiterated in the State of the Nation address, are potentially formidable hurdles for an alternative delivery mode to be demonstrated in the Western Cape. What is the DA's view of these potential different visions? Would the DA litigate about a single public service?

ZILLE: The first draft of the single public service legislation was completely unconstitutional. We would definitely have litigated about that. We believe it is a very bad idea. And as it was originally conceptualised, it was clearly designed to make public servants accountable to the centre, and to come close to nullifying the outcome of local elections that went against the ANC. If you can't hold public servants accountable to the local elected politicians, you might as well not win elections.

The second great concern was the lack of capacity in the central state to run most of its own functions, let alone centralise and deploy public servants around the country at will.  At least if you have decentralised control, some things can work. With centralised control, very few things will work. I think we will litigate very strongly to protect the constitutional space of spheres of governments and intergovernmental co-operation, which we believe in.

We're happy to work towards frameworks that establish key shared objectives. But we'd like the space to interpret those and implement particular strategies to address them within the frameworks that suit our policies. And we're fighting very, very hard for the right to do that. But I don't mean in a hostile sense.

I've said to President Zuma, he must please see the Western Cape as an opportunity, not as a threat. You might not agree with this, but in fact we have a mandate from this province to govern. It doesn't have to be a threat to the ANC nationally, it's an opportunity to test whether or not it can work. Give us a space and give us the chance.

If they go into the debate on co-operative governance on the basis that we're an administrative arm of the central state, then we're going to have our clashes. And then our Constitutional Court is going to have to work out what co-operative governance actually means.

TALJAARD: What is the one experience that you have taken from the variety of political roles you have played, that you believe is the most valuable for you in public life?

ZILLE: Diagnose the problem precisely before you try to address it. It's so often easy to apply the wrong solutions because you haven't understood the problem properly.

This interview appears in the latest edition of the magazine Focus- a quarterly publication of the Helen Suzman Foundation.

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