Transcript of Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa’s replies to oral questions in National Assembly, Parliament, Cape Town, Wednesday, 9 September 2015

17.  The Leader of the Opposition (DA) to ask the Deputy President:

In view of several recent findings by the Public Protector, such as those in the recent report into the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, that indicate that there is gross corruption and financial mismanagement in many government departments and state-owned enterprises, what is he doing to institutionalise best practice models in the Public Service in this regard? NO3987E

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon members, the issue of the institutionalisation of best practice models is a process that always focuses attention on, what we could say, the best ways of getting things done. The main focus of the Office of the Deputy President is on the national roll-out of a best practice model with regard to intergraded service delivery along the lines of Operation Sukuma Sakhe programme which is in KwaZulu-Natal. Operation Sukuma Sakhe approach embraces community partnership and full participation. It supports the co-ordinated implementation of service delivery interventions aimed at curbing social ills including unemployment, inequality and poverty, HIV and Aids, and crime and corruption.

The greater involvement of communities in the provision of service delivery should contribute to a greater transparency and accountability and reduce opportunities for corruption. Beyond the work being undertaken by the Office of the Deputy President, government more broadly has identified the fight against corruption as a priority. The diagnostic report of the National Planning Commission indicates that South Africa suffers from high levels of corruption that undermines the rule of law and hinders the development and socioeconomic transformation of our country. We have in place a number of mechanisms as well as programmes to both prevent and detect corruption and financial mismanagement and to take action against those found responsible. Some of these mechanisms which will accentuate the best practice models are already being finalised and I’ll talk about one of them.

Since we took over from the deep corrupt system of apartheid we have put in place several accountability mechanisms. The Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, the Protected Disclosures Act, the Public Service Management Act and the Municipal Finance Management Act are all aimed at reducing the scope for corruption. Oversight institutions such as the Auditor-General and the Public Protector play a critical role in ensuring transparency and accountability.

The best practice model is being implemented in a number of ways and in one of these was to establish the office of the chief procurement officer in the National Treasury and this has clearly been a significant development. This office uses strategic sourcing and purchasing of common goods to achieve efficiency and value for money. It is implementing a central supplier database to prevent acts such as duplication, increased supplier management efficiency and to reduce the potential for the abuse of government procurement processes. And given that, mostly corruption really manifests itself through the procurement system. This institutionalisation of the office of procurement is going to be very, very good in combating corruption. Ultimately, corruption will not be defeated unless we all play our part in curbing it.

Firstly, business needs to join government in stamping out corruption wherever it manifests itself.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, through you to the Deputy President, I think we can agree that despite the mechanisms that you’ve highlighted, corruption is on the rise. In fact, under President Zuma corruption is even getting worse. The real question is, and it is not me who is just saying it, but it is even in the ANC’s document which says it quite clearly that there are allegations within high leadership echelons. They acknowledged that many acts of corruption in government derive from party dynamics.

What I’m interested in learning is, and the question speaks about the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, where, similar to Nkandla, the Public Protector found again certain members. In fact, we know on the ground, people are telling us that jobs in the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, are given to ANC connected people.

So, our concern here is that even in this House the hon Pule Mabe has been found guilty by the Public Protector for a tender of R33 million. What I’m interested in learning, Deputy President, is that what are you going to do to ensure that there’s a political accountability? We can blame officials and we can put systems, but the fact is that politicians get away with corruption. What are you, as the Leader of Government Business, going to do to ensure that your fellow comrades are held to account, or should we rather wait for 2017? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, as I’ve indicated that corruption is a social and economic ill that we all need to fight. It is an ill that many countries have to deal with all over the world. There’s no country where corruption does not have to be dealt with. The success of being able to deal with corruption depends on a number of things. First, is to set in place the correct mechanisms as I was saying, but it also has to involve the population itself. The people of any country have, themselves, to participate in curbing corruption.

And in this case, we say that communities, business community and everyone has to play a role. We have found that in any act of corruption those who are involved will either be in business, civil servants or people in the public space who are publicly elected people. So, that is almost like the triangle of corruption and that is what we need to attend to and to rid our country of. And it exists all over.

It is all very well to sit up there and be biased and say, “You, deal with it; we have no role in it.” We are saying that all of us have to deal with this public ill ... [Interjections.]

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Point of order.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We ought to make sure that we deal with it and ensure that we rid our country off corruption now.

The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, may you please allow the Deputy President to respond to your question?

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, it is my question. Please, not ... please. Thanks.

The SPEAKER: Please, hon Maimane. Hon Deputy President, please proceed.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The hon member spoke about corruption in the EPWP programmes. I had always heard about this, and as I’ve gone around the country and particularly participating in initiatives where the EPWP programmes are underway. I’ve often asked how people are chosen to participate in the EPWP works or projects. I’ve often been shown lists that people have and many people in the community say, yes, my name came up and I’m participating; yes, my name came up and I’m participating.

The allegation that is being made is unknown to me. I have gone around the length and the breadth of the country seeking to find out how those jobs are actually distributed amongst our people. Corruption, yes, is an ill that we all need to participate in curbing. Let us not sit on our coaches and just talk about it, but let us do something about it. Thank you very much.

The SPEAKER: The hon Hlengwa.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Hon Speaker, on a point of order: No.

The SPEAKER: What’s the point of order?

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: With great respect, the question even speaks about the hon Mabe here. I’m asking the Deputy President what he is going to do, and not all of us. It’s not everyone’s problem. What is he going to do? Let the Deputy President answer the question himself. Not all of us, but himself.

The SPEAKER: Hon Maimane, I’m proceeding to ask the hon Hlengwa to put a supplementary question to the Deputy President. Yes, hon Steenhuisen.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, we put Questions to the Deputy President so that he answers them. He can’t come here with a pre-prepared script from Luthuli House and read it and expect us to accept it as an answer. He clearly did not understand or listen to the question of hon Maimane; it was direct and he has not answered it.

We can’t have these sessions here if the Deputy President is going to make a joke of it. Why must we come to the House and have these sessions if he is not actually going to answer the Questions? He needs to get serious. This man wants to be the President and he can’t even answer a Question! [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, I have now called upon hon Hlengwa to ask a supplementary Question. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: You are not addressing the point of order!

Mr M HLENGWA: Hon Deputy President, yesterday in this House there was a debate on the issue of corruption and I think we all left in agreement that corruption was a widespread problem, particularly on that side of the House. It is compounded by the fact that, more often than not, there is a total disregard for the findings of the Public Protector. The Question we would like answered is whether there is the political will and commitment in government to actually take the Public Protector and the findings that comes out of her investigations seriously.

What is currently going on cannot be acceptable. You cherry-pick the reports of the Public Protector and say, we like those, but we don’t like those. It makes a mockery of the process and further entrenches the culture of non-accountability.

So, is there the political will for a proactive engagement, interaction and relationship with the Public Protector, as opposed to this offensive and attacking nature which we currently see, which is reactive more often than not and is underpinned by high levels of cherry-picking?

We want a commitment towards a healthy working relation between government and the Public Protector because we want to maintain a healthy system of checks and balances, particularly with regard to the issues which are her findings on matters that she is investigating. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I can answer emphatically that, yes, there is political will to deal with the findings of the various institutions that we have put in place and are meant to deal with corruption. [Interjections.] The Public Protector recently came out with a report on Prasa – as the hon Leader of the Opposition mentioned earlier. When she came out with that report, the board immediately said they are studying that report and they are going to look closely at it and see what action needs to be taken. They have taken on the responsibility as the correct authority that should do so. They are the ones who either ask for the report or people complain and once the report is out they will deal with it.

The government’s commitment to dealing with corruption is strong and it is for this reason ... if you listen very carefully ... it is for this reason ...[Interjections.] ... that the office of central procurement has been put in place. Corruption always happens around procurement and it was for this reason that the ruling party decided that an office like that should be put in place. [Interjections.] It was put in place so that we can centralise procurement.

The procurement office is now setting up a supplier database so that anybody who wants to do business with the state – who wants the state to buy their services or their goods – should have their names on the database. This means that everything will be transparent and that there will be higher levels of efficiency. That is precisely how we are going to carry on with the job of curbing corruption in government.

Likewise, we are saying that those who are in business should also take heed. Corruption involves a number of people – those who are in business, some in the public service and also publicly elected officials. Everyone can get entrapped in corrupt activities.

This central procurement process is going to reduce levels of corruption. It is going to curb corruption and it is going to increase efficiency in government by ensuring that resources are not wasted. That is the commitment that we are giving to the people of South Africa and which I also give that to you, Mr Hlengwa. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr M L W FILTANE: Deputy President, I am sorry to say this but your initial response to the main question was pretty much generic. It didn’t offer much content. It is a very specific question which is based on the fact that, time and time again, we come across corruption in employment, construction, and retail – in the form of collusion – in housing allocation as well as in services where you get some monopolies.

Now, what stringent, urgent, strategic, legal measures does your government propose to take? What policies have actually been changed in the recent past – in the last five years – to show that you are dealing with – and not planning to deal with – current corruption in such a manner that it can actually be arrested? What legislation or policies have been amended, and so on?

We would like to get specific answers. If you are not ready to give us specific answers today, we can come back another time because you may not have all the details that we need. But we need answers. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: A number of policies have been put in place and continue to be put in place. For instance, one of the recent policies is to stop and curb civil servants from doing business with the state. A number of investigations found that a number of civil servants were actually doing business with the state. In education, for instance, you will find that a school principal is the owner of the catering company that supplies food to the school children.

It is for this that government decided that we should stop and curb activities like those because the conflict of interest is quite huge when it comes to that. That was a policy move, a clear directed policy move to curb activities such as those.

I don’t want to repeat myself, but one of the most outstanding decisions was to establish the office of central procurement. This was decided by the ruling party at its conference. It has now been put in place. The Procurement Bill is also going to be put before Parliament and the machinery and mechanisms are being put in place to deal with the question of corruption.

This is a ruling party that is not paying lip service to the issue of dealing with corruption. [Interjections.] It is actually getting down to business. [Interjections.]

If you want to know, a number of civil servants have actually been dealt with in a number of ways ... [Interjections.] ... in a disciplinary fashion, some have actually had criminal charges preferred against them, and some have even had to comply with follow up actions like actually refunding money to the state. [Interjections.] Now, all of these are both policy instruments as well as practical action that were taken.

In reference to the earlier Question in which an allegation was made that Members of Parliament had been involved in corrupt activities, this Parliament has the power to report any Member of Parliament involved in corrupt activities to the Ethics Committee. The Ethics Committee can deal with them. So, please don’t come here and complain. If anyone is involved in corrupt activity let them be reported to the Ethics Committee, because that is how you deal with corruption. [Applause.]

Ms H O MAXON: Hon Speaker to the Deputy President, the flourishing corruption in this country is not so much because of incompetent public servants who are mismanaging funds, but it is as the result of the institutionalisation of corruption at a political level. For instance Schabir Shaik gets convicted for having a corrupt relationship with the President, spends a few months in jail and goes on to play golf. The Public Protector asks the President to pay a reasonable amount of the money spent to build his compound in Nkandla, instead, the President uses Parliament to shield his corruption. Your own company, hon Deputy President, colludes to sell coal to Eskom at inflated prices. Now, the question is, what kind of medicine is needed to cure the ANC with its leadership? [Interjections.]

You can laugh but you heard what I said. The ANC, starting with number one, need a medicine to be cured, as there is no political will at all or else we need prayers in this country. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, earlier I spoke about the problem of corruption. We are not unique. Many countries and institutions all over the world have to deal with corruption. If we recall or cast our eyes back, corruption in this very country was rife and underpinned by an apartheid system. However, we never got to hear about it because ... [Interjections.] ... it was hidden under the edifice of apartheid.

But today, yes, we do get to hear about corruption. This is good because it shows that transparency is increasing hence corruption is now coming out more and more in the open. Our media is much more vigorous and this is a good sign of progress. At the same time the ruling party has actually decided that it is going to deal with corruption as one of the key ills that beset our country.

Now mechanisms are being put in place, some are already in operation and indeed some will continue to be in operation. If members of this House have further suggestions on how this can be dealt with, let them put those suggestions on the table. We are open to any suggestions. However, we have already put in place mechanisms that are currently dealing with the spade of corruption. We are determined to rid our country of corruption whether you like it or not, we will do it. Thank you, very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

18.   Mr N F Shivambu (EFF) to ask the Deputy President:

Whether, in view of the fact that the National Development Plan (NDP) goals are based on a 5% economic growth and the fact that the country will not achieve such economic growth, with the result that the NDP goals will not be achieved, the Government intends to abandon the NDP and replace it with a more radical economic policy framework that will be driven by the state and not the private sector; if not, why not? NO3988E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker and hon members, like in many other countries, our economy currently faces headwinds. It faces difficult challenges that are contributing to low economic growth. We are not the only country in the world that is facing economic woes, but this is right across, including a country like China which was growing at high rates. So, we are not alone. Let us remember that we are not alone there are many other countries that are facing economic challenges. [Interjections.]

Some of our challenges are domestic. We have a large scales deficit as a result of our past, we have systemic employment, we have low levels of domestic savings, we do have energy constrains as we all know, we have low levels of fixed investments and there are also labour relations issues. [Interjections.]

On the other hand, just like in many other countries, there are quite a number of external challenges that we face which include a plunge in commodity prices. We are essentially a mineral-based economy and the commodities that we eke out of our soil are facing great difficulties like lower demand from China and other emerging economies, and rising interest rates in some of the developed economies like the United States.

We are determined to address these challenges so that we can accelerate economic growth and achieve the goals that we set for ourselves in the National Development Plan, NDP. In addition, the nine-point plan that was announced by President Jacob Zuma in his state of the nation address is specifically designed to address these challenges. These have been this government’s response to the economic headwinds that we are facing. This government is committed to a mixed economy that facilitates and enhances participation of both the public and the private sectors.

As we note in the National Development Plan, South Africa requires both a capable and a developmental state which is able to act to redress historical inequities to have a vibrant and thriving private sector which is going to work along side with the public sector. The NDP recognises the need for sustained state participation in the economy not in opposition to, but in partnership with the private sector like it happens in many other countries. [Interjections.]

The state is already making significant contribution and investment in our economy. It is currently investing large amounts in infrastructure, in energy, in transport systems and in building dams and houses. Government promotes economic transformation also by promoting and supporting small medium businesses and it has implemented several measures to attract both foreign and domestic investments.

We have been successful often in partnership with state-owned enterprises particularly in the form of developmental finance institutions like the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, and the Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA. Government also intervenes to deal with challenges of specific sectors in our economy. A recent example is how we have dealt with the steel industry that is facing headwinds. This government is committed to addressing the real impediments to growth in our economy and as we manage this economy we are creating a balance between what the state can do on its own and what the state can do in partnership with the private sector. With that, we continue to seek this balance and we are confident that as we implement the nine-point plan, our economic woes will be the thing of the past as our economy continues to grow.

Now 2020, is the year that we have set out for ourselves to have an economy - hon Shivambu - that will be growing at 5%. And this is not the time to think of abandoning the NDP, not at all. It is an overarching plan of our people and of our country and we should, and in fact I am convinced that we will, be able to reach that 5% growth by 2030. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]     

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Speaker, earlier on the Chief Whip of the Opposition said that the Deputy President wants to be the President, well according to the premier league, that is not going to happen. He is not going to be the president of anything ... [Laughter.] [Interjections.] ... because the next President is going to be a female. Now, the question is, your NDP’s backbone is that there must be capitalist expansion by 5% at least in the next 14 or 15 years. And all indications in the global economy and domestically are such that there will never be such expansion despite whatever you can do. You can only wish.

So, it means that your intension to create 11 million jobs, to deal with the question of education much more decisively, to industrialise might not happen because your logic and thinking is that there must be continued capitalist expansion. We are saying, don’t you think it is high time to take a noncapitalist development which will include state-led industrialisation – state-anchored industrialisation – instead of just throwing money into black industries. Like was the case in China when it took off from the late 1970s to the early 1980s, why don’t you use this space to utilise the available steel and mineral resources to industrialise ... [Interjections.] 

The SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, do you have a question?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: ... and deal more decisively with those issues? The question is, why don’t we involve state-participation and take a noncapitalist route towards industrial development? Thank you very much, Deputy President forever.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, I think anyone reading the political economic history of the world will realise that successful economies, particularly in the modern age, have tended to be those that have harnessed the strength of state-owned enterprises as well as the private sector enterprises. It was then Xiuping who, after 30 years of pure socialists economic development in China, realised that the only way to catapult China to higher levels of growth would be to harness the capital of the private sector and involve the private sector.

Remember in 1949 they had smashed the state and set up state-owned enterprises and their performance was not at a high level. I will give you one good example. Their steel production capability was kept at 23 million tons and it was only after 1979 - after they introduced capital from offshore management capabilities - that they learned from other capitalist countries, that they integrated them with their own state-owned enterprises and that their steel production rose up to 620 million tons. They were wise because they had adopted a system that said we want to control our economy, but we are going to involve the private sector. Granted, the public sector in China is the dominant player in their economy. In our country ... [Interjections.] ... Yes, but it is as a result of their history.

In 1949, they smashed the state and nationalised everything. In 1994 we did not smash the state and we had to reach an agreement with capital in this country.[Interjections.] Capital controls 70% of our economy and we control 30%. [Interjections.]

Now, the question is, how do you harness the strength of both the private sector and the public sector to create magic and to make sure that your economy grows. That is what China did and we are investing a lot of money in our economy as the state. The state is currently the biggest investor in our economy and we are investing in infrastructure. The capital investment in our economy is rising by leaps and bounds. With the state and the private sector playing a key role in the economic trajectory of our country going to 2030, we are going to turn this economy around. Thank you, very much. [Applause.]

Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, the National Development Plan, NDP, remains one document or strategic plan which has the support of most South Africans because it was unanimously adopted by this Parliament. Civil society, business and labour, also supported the NDP. It is not only South Africans who supported the NDP, our trade partners when they came and engaged us here in Parliament, they said that this NDP is good because they can see future projections of this economy and the areas in which development is going to be as the entire economy in the world reaches it peaks and troughs. Is the South African government contemplating dropping this good plan because of the first troughs that we are hitting as a country? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The South African government has no plans, intentions, thoughts or whatsoever to drop the NDP. This has become the most comprehensive plan that has been put forward to the people of South Africa and the good thing about it is that it was adopted by nearly every party in this Parliament. It is our plan. It is our overarching plan that we have translated as government with the purpose of implementing it more properly in to the medium-term strategic plan framework with clearly set out outcomes and deliverables.

That plan has been dissected to the last iota. It’s every quota is now in implementation mode. Ministers in President Zuma’s government account for how they are implementing the plan, how they set out areas of strength and weakness and how they actually set out clear timeframes with regard to the implementation of the plan. Because it is an overarching plan, it touches on every aspect of South Africans.

This has become the most wholesome plan our country has had and it is deeply embedded on the Freedom Charter which was adopted 60 years ago. As we implement this plan we are essentially implementing the tenets of our Constitution as well as the Freedom Charter. More directly we have no plan whatsoever to abandon the National Development Plan and indeed the Freedom Charter. This is our plan. It is a plan by South Africans, they own it and they are watching us as we are implementing it. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr D J MAYNIER: With respect Deputy President, the hon Deputy Minister of Public Works, Jeremy Cronin, disagrees with you because the hon Deputy Minister tells us that the National Development Plan is more like a vision. He tells us that it consist of some useful insights and recommendations, intriguing and untested proposals, summaries of programmes and long underway and much else. He tells us that these are all sandwiched between an opening section of cringe worthy poetry and a clumsy attempt to present social contract theory. These are not views of the opposition but they are views of government and its own National Development Plan.

So, will the Deputy President tell us whether he agrees with his own Deputy Minister and if he doesn’t agree whether he agrees with me that the root cause of the problem is that government cannot or indeed will not implement the National Development Plan? That is why as the ANC’s own document tell us that South Africa is an under performer. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: It is not my wish to personalise anything in this Parliament but to the extent that you want me to personalise it. [Interjections.] I work with Deputy Minster Cronin and both of us are leading the charge in implementing programmes that are set out in the National Development Plan. That is what I need to tell you because you want us to disown our Minister. No! We will not. We will rather disown you because we can’t disown our own Deputy Minister. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Coming back to some of the interpretation that you put, the poetry in the National Development Plan is so well crafted. The Deputy Minister is a poet himself. You should take time and read his poems because maybe that will be eye opening to you. It will open the pores of your thinking if you were to read his poems. Now, the National Development Plan as an overarching plan of government, is a plan that we are all implementing. What you have said and what the Deputy Minister has said in his reading is not mutually exclusive, we are together in implementing this plan. So, there are no contradictions and where you are seeing contradictions it is as a result of you double vision, because I am sure maybe you don’t see clearly. [Applause.]

We are joined ... [Interjections.] – Yes, because you wear classes. I am only double visioned when I read, when I put on my glasses, but you are permanently double visioned. [Laughter.] We are all committed to implementing the National Development Plan. There are no contradictions, there is no doubt, and there is no hesitation on this side of the House about implementing it. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Speaker, hon Deputy President, the National Development Plan is a very good idea to begin with and by the way it is already driven by the state. However, it may never be implemented because of the many challenges and changing circumstances impacting South Africa on a daily basis. We see business confidence in South Africa falling to a recent low of 84.3% on the business Comfort Index. This is due largely due and admittedly so by the global financial market turmoil. The biggest threat must be the plan for socioeconomic development in this country when taking into account the variables such as the energy supply, labour, unions and a hostile labour market and numerous other challenges. My question, hon Deputy President, if government cannot deal with the volatile and changing socioeconomic patterns and adequately plan for the same, how do we expect business to find comfort in the long-term strategy in South Africa and to embrace the NDP? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: One thing that you cannot fault this government for is its bravery and its courage to deal with all difficult challenge that it faces. You have just alluded to some of them. We are dealing with great challenges such as the labour situation, lack of investment and the energy challenge. You haven’t had load shedding for almost 30 days now. [Interjections.] We are stabilising Eskom and we told you so. [Interjections.] We told you that we will stabilise Eskom and it is happening right in front of your eyes and maybe you are blind and you don’t see that we are stabilising. [Applause.] Maybe you lack hearing and maybe we need to repeat over and over again. We are dealing with our challenges like any other country in the world. [Interjections.] We are not shy of dealing with them and where we have weaknesses we admit them. Where we have failings we admit them, we are that type of government.

When it comes to the business community, our President on an ongoing basis interacts with business leaders with a view of increasing business confidence and invites them to come forward with proposals and to invest in their own economy. At the National Economic Development and Labour Council level, a number of our Ministers such as the Ministers of Labour, Economic Planning and others participate with all our social partners. We are going to hold a summit on Friday where we will deal with economic challenges facing our country.

We have an interactive relationship with the business community, social organisations or NGO’s as well as unions. You don’t find that easily in many other countries in the world. We are one of the unique countries that deal with difficult problems with all our social partners and this is being done so that we can get ideas. The business community must come forward with ideas and put them on the table so that we can see whether they have any efficacy so that we can inject them in the economic growth that we should be having. We invite them to invest in their own economy because government is investing big bucks in the economy of our country. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

19. Mr M S A Masango (ANC) to ask the Deputy President:

In light of the country having been consistent in advocating for the resolution of conflict through dialogue and peaceful means and the promotion of mutual friendship among the nations of the world in line with the premise that all nations have a shared responsibility to collectively improve the human condition, will he share with the House the rationale that underpins this international relations’ strategy and its effectiveness in advancing the national interest as well as the African Agenda? NO3986E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT Speaker, this year marks the 60th anniversary of the adoption of the Freedom Charter, which is clearly the bedrock on which our democratic value system is founded. The Charter affirms that, “South Africa and its people unequivocally pledged to respect the rights and sovereignty of all nations,” and to recognise the independence and the right to self-determination of African countries or nations.

The Draft White Paper on South Africa’s Foreign Policy elaborates on this theme. It says:

As a beneficiary of many acts of selfless solidarity in the past, South Africa believes strongly for what it wishes for its people, should be what it wishes for the citizens of the world. ... In pursuing our national interests, our decisions are informed by a desire for a just, humane and equitable world order of greater security, peace, dialogue and economic justice.

We are an African country whose fortunes are inextricably connected and linked with those of our sister countries in the region and on the continent. Our foreign policy engagements are therefore anchored on the African agenda. Paramount to the achievement of this agenda is the social and economic development of a continent and promotion of peace, security and stability throughout the continent.

South Africa has been actively involved in initiatives such as the Millennium Development Goals, MDGs, and the plan of implementation of the World Summit on Sustainable Development. We have been centrally involved in development and implementation of a number of key instruments that have emanated from our continent. Some of those instruments are the Constitutive Act of the African Union, the New Partnership for Africa’s Development, Nepad, the African Peer Review Mechanism, APRM, and the Protocol Relating to the Establishment of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union.

At the level of the Southern African Development Community, SADC, we have been actively engaged in offering its principal development and regional integration instruments. South Africa has been part of Africa’s effort to restore peace and stability in strive to warn countries like the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, Burundi and the Republic of Sudan as well as South Sudan.

The values that have guided our foreign policy engagements have led to the expansion of bilateral relations with other countries on the continent, and have also led to enhancing trade and investment. While we can proudly celebrate the work we have done in the international sphere, we are acutely aware of the developmental and security challenges humanity faces.

We are nevertheless convinced that the approach, we as the country have taken and forged relationships with the rest of the world, remains valid, relevant and progressive. It is an approach that recognises the reality that states are indeed interdependent. It is an approach that promotes cooperation over competition and collaboration over confrontation. It is an approach that that advances the national interests, while advancing the common interests of all nations. Thank you. [Applause.]

IsiNdebele:

Mnu M S A MASANGO: Ngiyathokoza Somlomo. Angithokoze Isekela likaMmongameli ngehlathululo edzimeleleko. Ngijama naye iveke namalangana. Umbuzo-landelela wami uthi: ...

English:

... To give effect to the Freedom Charter’s principle that says, “There shall be peace and friendship,” how far has South Africa worked collaboratively and/or in solidarity with other countries, institutions or multilateral organs to realise this peace-making and peace-enforcement vision?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, we, as a country, are actively - and I could say deeply - involved in the process of peace making on the African continent. We do this under the aegis of the AU, and there we are ably led by one of our very own, Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, who, as one of our own, has injected quite a lot of energy and life in what the whole of the continent is now doing.

We now participate in a number of countries: Like, the DRC, Sudan and a number of other countries. We are therefore called upon to come and participate largely because a number of African countries, the regional bodies and the AU itself have indeed realised that we have something to contribute.

As we do this, we do it with great humility: Never imposing ourselves; we never putting ourselves forward; never seeking to gain anything; and never seeking to gain our own interests. Our interests – yes - are to promote peace and security on the continent, and have the opportunity to promote investment and trade, with a view of fostering the success and development of other countries also, as we do that for ourselves.

So, we are deeply involved in various initiatives. We were honoured as well, when our President was asked to chair the infrastructure thrust of the continent, and in that regard, he has been doing well also. Our former President, Thabo Mbeki, was also honoured, and our country was honoured in that regard, for leading a process of dealing with issues of the flight of capital from our continent. Therefore, we are deeply involved in a number of ways on the continent, and as I said, we do that with a great deal of humility.

Another thing that one would say is that: We would wish that all of us as the leaders in our country, when we have to travel to various other parts of the African continent and indeed the world, we should all join each other, exercise our patriotism and speak positively about our country, like others do when they travel overseas and speak positively about our country. [Applause.]

Now, this is an open invitation to the people that sit on the other side of the House, that: When you travel, don’t go and badmouth the country; instead, go and speak positively about your country. [Applause.]

Mr S MOKGALAPA: Deputy President, you have referred to the AU key instruments. One of them is article 10 of the African Charter on Democracy, Elections and Governance which was adopted by the Assembly of Heads of States of the African Union in January 2007. It imposes a duty on state parties to entrench the supremacy of their Constitutions. We have seen in recent months that the leaders in the states of Burundi, Rwanda and the DRC have pushed through the constitutional amendments, in efforts to seek the extension of their term limits in office. This has become a catalyst for renewed political conflicts.

Mr Deputy President, it seems that South Africa’s foreign policy is clueless and immoral at best, and chaotic at worst. So, the question is: What is your government’s policy on working to prevent the African Presidents violating their constitutional term limits? [Interjections.] Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If you took care to read what is in the Freedom Charter, you would immediately have an answer to your question. Our policy stance in relation to various other countries: Is based on the respect of those countries’ sovereignty; it is based on the respect of their self-determination; and it is based on what was also adopted in the 1950s in Bandung, on noninterference in the internal affairs of other countries. [Interjections.]

Having said that, what we do, acting with others in a multilateral way is: Where we find that there is slippage on this and that - maybe in various principles, like democratic principles - we use our powers of persuasion. This is because in the end, persuasion is the best diplomatic tool that one can use: Being able to discuss; to have dialogue; and to cooperate with others. Where, for instance, we are invited to give our views, we do give the views that we hold on to, and those that are deeply embedded in our Constitution. We give the views that we adopted when we passed our own Constitution.

Therefore, when you say that we are clueless, I don’t know what you mean by that because our international policy is based on having a clear direction, which is expired and informed by the Freedom Charter, by our Constitution and by our policy document as adopted also. So, we do what we have to do and lead our country in navigating the various challenges that we come across as we implement our foreign policy. Our foreign policy is very progressive; it cannot be faulted. [Interjections.]

Those who fault our foreign policy do not know what diplomacy is all about. [Interjections.] [Applause.] We know diplomacy, we are well schooled in diplomacy and we are actually implementing the best foreign policy that this country has ever had. [Interjections.] This country has never heard a clear foreign policy; that is what we are implementing. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Sesotho:

Mong N S MATIASE: Motlatsa Mopresidente, ka hobane o se o kile wa ya Lesotho makgetlo a mmalwa, ke nahana hore o tla tseba seo ke tlang ho se hlalosa. E re nke ke o tlabole hanyenyane hee! Mosotho o re: Matlo a matle diotlwana. O bolela hore o ke ke wa tloha ha hao, wa ya ha monna e mong, mme ha o fihla teng wa fiela lebala la hae empa o sitwa ho fiela la hao.

Ke bua tjena ke hobane mesebetsi ya hao le ya puso ya hao, mane Marikana - moo o ileng wa dumella hore basebetsi ba bolawe le ho etsuwa dintho tse mpe - ... [Kena hanong.] ... e o hlokisa tokelo ya hore o ka tswa wa ya Afrika, kapa hona Lesotho, ho ya kopanya mekga eo e bang ha e utlwane ka puo bakeng sa ho rarolla diqabang tsa yona. Kahoo ...

English:

... by your conduct in South Africa, you have dishonoured the trust and the confidence of the founding fathers who have called upon you and your organisation to tirelessly work for the unity of the African people.[Interjections.]

Now, my question is: How do you hope that you would be able to mediate without fear of self-contradiction and without you being so much conflicted?  It is a fact that you are conflicted because you’ve got business interests just as your President has business interests in Lesotho. That is the reason that the Basotho people are fighting among themselves ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Matiase, do you have a question?

Mr N S MATIASE: My question is: How does the Deputy President hope to mediate for a permanent solution of the conflict in Lesotho, despite him being so much conflicted because of business-vested interests in Lesotho and those of his President?

Sesotho:

MOTLATSA MOPRESIDENTE: Ntate Matiase, bomadimabe ke bona: Rona re le Mmuso wa Afrika Borwa re a bitswa. Ba a re kopa ba re, ‘Tlong kwano!’ Ha se nthwane eo wena o ne o ka e thabela hore o e sunye ho batho ba bang. Rona re a bitswa; re a kotjwa. Ba re, ‘Re o kopa hore o tle o tlo thusa, o kenye letsoho - o re thuse ho rarolla mathata ao re leng ho ona. Ntho eno ba e etsa ka hobane ba tseba mesebetsi ya rona re le Afrika Borwa. [Mahofi.] Ba a e tseba!

Ehlile, ba tseba le mesebetsi ya baetapele ba rona - baetapele ba rona ba sa qaleng ka nna le Mopresidente Zuma. Ba re tseba ho tloha kgale! Kgale mokgatlo ona wa ANC o na le baetapele ba neng ba sebeletsa Afrika kaofela, ba leka hore ho be le ho sebetsa hantle dinaheng tse ding.

English:

So what you are saying about being conflicted, ...

Sesotho:

... ke ne ke ka kopa hore o hlahise bopaki, o bo behe mona pepeneneng, re bone hore a na bopaki bo teng! [Mahofi.] Ke ile ka hlalosa kgetlong lane le fetileng, ke jwetsa mohlomphehi Malema le ena ... [Kena hanong.]

Mong J S MALEMA: Ke kopa o se ke wa nkenya! [Ditsheho.]

MOTLATSA MOPRESIDENTE: Ke ne ke hlalosetsa le ena, empa o re ke se ke ka mo kenya ka hobane tsena ha a batle hore a kenywe ho tsona! [Ditsheho.] [Kena hanong.]

Jwale, e re ke hlalosetse wena hee: Ha e ba o na le bopaki, bo behe tafoleng; o se ke wa bua ntho eo o sa e tsebeng. [Kena hanong.] Ka Sesotho hothwe: O se ke wa bua dintho tseo o sa di tsebeng; o bue nnete feela.[Kena hanong.] Jwale, ke batla nnete ho wena ntate wa ka. [Mahofi.] Ha e be nnete, e se ke ya ba mabarebare feela: O ntse o tsamaya hohle mona o bua ntho e seng teng; ebile o bua maka![Ditsheho.] Tanki ntate. [Mahofi.]

English:

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, how does South Africa’s recent flouting of an International Criminal Court, ICC, arrest warrant in the Al-Bashir debacle impact on our standing in the international community of nations? Are we now being seen as a country that cannot be trusted and which is not in good faith in terms of international agreements? How do you intend to repair our internationally damaged reputation in the wake of the Al-Bashir debacle?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The answer is no; our international standing is intact. [Interjections.] It is clearly intact. The President will soon be travelling to the UN for the general meetings. Whilst he is there try to make yourself into a fly on the wall ... [Laughter.] ... and watch the President being feted, being received and being called upon to meet various other heads of state. Our President and South Africa is really popular. It is the darling of the countries of the world. [Applause.] Whenever President Zuma travels they want to meet him.

There are times when he asks me to deputise on his behalf, and whenever I meet other heads of state they always say, where is my brother Jacob Zuma? Where is my brother Jacob Zuma? Pass my greetings on to him. So, that is a clear indication. If you could make yourself into a fly on the wall, I would invite you to do so when he travels to the UN. Thank you.

20. Mr N Singh (IFP) to ask the Deputy President:

In view of the context of the current national effort aimed at exploring a new innovative way of growing the economy, as well as his recent visit to Japan, what have been the successes of the current national effort and the specified visit that he undertook, as well as the names of other countries that have been identified for this type of bilateral engagement aimed at improving the prospects of economic growth in the short and long term?       NO3989E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, South Africa’s engagements with other countries aim, among other things, to increase bilateral trade and investment. They also provide an opportunity to share experiences on economic, social and technological development.

The recent visit to Japan for example, aimed to strengthen relations with Japan and to identify opportunities for collaboration in the areas of innovation, technology transfer, minerals beneficiation, renewable energy, advanced manufacturing and agroprocessing.

On our recent trip Minister Naledi Pandor was there, as was Deputy Minister Cele, Deputy Minister Masina and a number of other key government officials. We went there to sign a number of agreements, particularly on the technology transfer side. The Japanese can teach us a lot but so can we, and that is the type of exchange that we had gone to seal there.

The visit contributed to the advancement of Africa's agenda by further strengthening the Tokyo International Conference on African Development partnership. This partnership promotes trade, investment, growth and infrastructure development on the African continent.

The Japanese government undertook to assist South Africa with its energy diversification efforts by transferring energy-saving technology to our country. It also committed itself to advancing the implementation of the joint study on economic co-operation and undertaking training programmes to upskill South Africans in line with our black industrialists programme.

South Africa undertakes bilateral engagements with a number of other countries around the world to promote trade, investment, skills and technology transfer, and also to promote broader economic growth and co-operation. These engagements have resulted, among other things, in deepening business linkages between our country and those countries, and increased investment in South Africa.

Japan stands out as one notable one, where after we met the business community they said that they wanted to invest more in our country. The 130 Japanese companies that are here almost in unison said that they are here to stay because they found South Africa to have the stability they require to foster their investments. We also have agreements on scientific and technological co-operation, and the general promotion of South Africa as a desirable investment destination.

These engagements also provided an opportunity to learn from the experiences of other countries that have been successful in pursuing economic growth and social development. South Africa’s economic success depends in large measure on its ability to grow foreign direct investment, and significantly expand and diversify its exports. This makes such bilateral engagements even more important and more valuable. So, these trips are really valuable because they give us a great opportunity.

Lastly, let me say that we also had an opportunity to meet a number of South African students who are on scholarships in Japan. They have learned the Japanese language and they are now doing their masters degrees. These are young men and women who are doing extremely well and all of them almost in unison said they want to come back home; they will be ready to come back home with their skills and they will come to work for the further development of our country. That is something we can be proud of. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: The hon Mncwango?

Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon Speaker, I just want to make a correction. I was at your table earlier to inform you that the hon Esterhuizen will be taking charge of the follow up question on behalf of the hon Singh.

The SPEAKER: The hon Esterhuizen?

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Deputy President, whilst I do agree that favourable relations with other countries must be encouraged as a way of positively growing our economy and addressing critical skills shortages, my question is, in the huge delegation to Japan, which included officials from the SA Nuclear Energy Corporation, Necsa, how do you justify seeking to attract essential skills from Japan in the fields of science and technology, and especially in the field of nuclear energy, while we have them right here in South Africa? In fact, yesterday I was advised by a senior official at the Koeberg Nuclear Power Station that South Africa already has skilled nuclear scientists that are amongst the most highly qualified in the world. As a matter of fact, the Safari-1 training facility at Koeberg sponsors nuclear science at the University of Cape Town that attracts students from all over the world. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I was really scratching my head in trying to take in what you have said and I couldn’t believe that I was hearing you saying that because we have got these, don’t send others away. Now, let me tell you that those young men and women who are in Japan are all black. They are all black; they are coming back with great skills; and many of them will tell you that when they started off with their learning process they did not find it easy to be so well received in South African institutions. Now they have chosen to go and learn elsewhere.

Putting that aside, there is nothing wrong with anyone going overseas to go and learn something new. That is something that can be quite defining and life changing. We are a multidisciplinary type of country, or learning processes must be multidisciplinary. We must involve everyone who knows something, even those who have learned overseas and those who have learned locally. We should never put brakes on young people who want to go and learn elsewhere and say to them they should not go to Japan and they should not go to England because we have enough.

I will tell you something else; when we started training – and I hope you are listening hon member – actuaries in our country, a university professor asked me, why should we train more actuaries when we already have 450 in the country? However, only one of them was black, and I said we need actuaries and we need black actuaries. It was only then that the penny dropped for him and today we have almost 50 black actuaries and 70 more in the pipeline. We are increasing the number. [Applause.] Now, if we had listened to him and the type of statement that you are putting forward, we would have stopped in our tracks and our young black people would never have had an opportunity to be trained. So, we have broadened and opened up the places of learning because we want our young people to learn wherever they can learn. The whole world should be a place where they can go and learn. We should never restrict them. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Madam Speaker, with respect that is absolutely not what I asked the Deputy President. I actually asked why he went head hunting there, not to send students over there. They tried to employ scientists.

The SPEAKER: Hon Esterhuizen, can I proceed to the next person who is hon Hill-Lewis?

Mr G G HILL-LEWIS: Speaker, I am so pleased that the Deputy President had a comfortable flight over to Japan for that trip. But in his response he mentioned a lot about investment and growing the investment relationship with Japan which I found very interesting because while he was there, the Minister of Trade and Industry was tabling the Promotion and Protection of Investment Bill here in Parliament which could better be dubbed the prevention of investment Bill. The Bill has as its genesis the replacement and cancellation of precisely the kind of agreements the Deputy President was trying to agree in Japan, the bilateral investment treaties.

This gives rise to two questions in relation to his recent efforts to build new bilateral trade relationship with Japan and the other countries he has mentioned. Firstly, why the Deputy President is establishing new trade and investment relationships with some countries, but his government is cancelling bilateral agreements with other countries? Could he enumerate for us which countries are good for bilateral agreements and which countries are not good? Secondly, does his recent effort not contradicts the purpose of the Bill tabled, which is to obviate the need for bilateral agreements? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, in pursuing our foreign policy objectives, the foreign policies underpinned by our need to grow investments as well as promoting trade in our country, we will  therefore, seek to enter into agreements with as many countries as possible. Agreements that were entered into in the past may need either to be streamlined, amended or to be improved. That is the process that is underway. The hon member should know that the Japanese business people will be here in a few days to hold a seminar which they have asked me to come and open. They are coming fast on the heels of our visit to Japan because they want to invest further here. Their investment or export promotion entity called the Japan External Trade Organisation, Jetro, is going to be holding a seminar here together with our own local businesses.

Why are they doing so? They are doing so because they want to further invest in our country. They want to deepen their own understanding of the investment environment in our country, and they want to form partnerships with a number of other companies in our country particularly your emerging black industrialists companies. Therefore, there is no hindrance in whatsoever particularly on the Japan side and indeed from any other country. Later, President Zuma and I will be travelling with Ministers to various other countries.

As we travel what we seek to do is to promote investment by those countries into South Africa and our trade dealings with them. Nothing else is going to deter us from doing so. If we have to enter into agreements we will do so, if we have to amend agreements we will do so with a view of streamlining those agreements that we have entered into. What you are dealing here with in terms of the legislation, go ahead and enable our ability to go and seek investments to come to South Africa so that we can create jobs. Thank you, Speaker.

Mr I MOSALA: Speaker, Deputy President, what investment plans has the Japanese business community and government committed in consolidating the objectives of the African agenda through the Tokyo International Conference on African Development partnership in promoting, firstly, increased investment growth and infrastructure development in support of the Agenda 2063? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, a number of initiatives are going to be considered at the next Tokyo International Conference on African Development, Ticad, meeting which is going to be held, I think, in Kenya. The Prime Minister of Japan is coming to the African continent together with a number of other Ministers from Japan. That meeting will also be attended by our President. A number of African leaders will get together and discuss the extent to which we can get Japan to co-operate on an equal basis with the African continent in fostering investment in a number of areas particularly in trade as well as in infrastructure.

Japan wants a number of other African countries to trade with them. We are well placed because already we have up to 130 of these companies working here. We are a very strong platform to facilitate that type of economic activity for a number of other African countries. Japan is obviously also, on its own, looking at a number of areas where it can expand. We had great joy in testing out a vehicle that Toyota has developed in Japan which is powered by fuel cells. Fuel cells use platinum as a catalyst. They are going to be rolling out these types of cars in a big way. South Africa is well placed to benefit from this type of economic activity.

Therefore, Japan and South Africa and indeed Japan and Africa are going to continue strengthening their investment and trade ties. In our case, we want to strengthen our industrial base. They are warmly disposed towards helping us develop our own industrial base and development and also promoting black industrialists. We are well positioned with Japan, Africa is well positioned with Japan and we can look forward to a future where we have good relations with Japan as we continue to develop and grow our own economy. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr A M SHAIK-EMAM: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy President, I think you have, in your last response, alluded to most of what I was going to actually ask. However, economic development and job creation go hand in hand. What role would you play in placing emphasis on the manufacturing industry for the purpose of our export and local consumption bringing in experts with skills from China and Japan to enhance the manufacturing industry in South Africa and place more emphasis on exporting to create more jobs, industries and entrepreneurs in this country as a result thereof, and including partnership agreements where South African or businessmen will own 51% to maybe 49% of those that are investing in the country which will actually stimulate and create economic development in the country? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Speaker, all of the above is precisely what we want to do and foster. We were fortunate enough to be accompanied by a fairly large business delegation of a fairly serious businessmen and businesswomen of our country who participated in a business round table in Tokyo. They were able to exchange views and ideas and some of them were even able to finalise contracts and deals that they were busy with. It was actually a joy to watch that. As they travel with the President and the Deputy President on these trips, it is not just paying lip service to joint travel, but it is actually something that leads to business deals that in the end will lead to export to outside our country and investment into our country. There is a great deal of benefit in that regard.

But other than that, one of the things that we have learnt is that other countries have been able to develop their own economies by studying what other countries have done. We know for a fact that for China to get to the level where they are, they actually travelled around the world and saw how other successful countries had gone about growing their own economies. Deng Xiaoping was one leader of China who went around a number of countries such as France, Japan and a number of places to see how they are running their economies. He went back to China and turned China around with regard to what he had seen and learned.

We’ve told them our story. We told them, as we travelled around, that we want to increase manufacturing in our country, and we want to industrialise our country. We found that they respond well. Many of them are willing to come and invest, and many of them are willing that we should go and learn their skills, management skills, technological skills and also to see how the innovative journeys that they have taken have led them to higher levels of growth. We are learning from that because we also want to be innovative, create new things and new industries with a view to growing our economy. We are at work, we are doing a lot of things, learning from others and our economy will take off and it will create jobs like you have never seen before. Thank you very much.

Source: Unrevised Transcript, Hansard