Unrevised transcript of President Jacob Zuma's replies to oral questions in the national assembly, Parliament, March 17 2011:

Question 2: The Leader of the Opposition (DA) to ask the President of the Republic:

Whether, in light of the Public Protector's findings on 22 February 2011 that the conduct of a certain person, (name and details furnished), was improper, unlawful and amounted to maladministration, the said person is still fit to serve the country in his current capacity; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? NO632E

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I have received the Public Protector's report, and I am studying it. I am also awaiting reports from the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Secretary to Cabinet who are already in discussion with the Public Protector on the issues she has raised. Once I have received all the outstanding information, I shall consider the matter and decide what steps, if any, need to be taken. I am therefore not in a position to fully answer the question posed by the hon member yet, as that would be tantamount to prejudging the issues.

Let me emphasise that government holds all its Chapter 9 institutions in very high regard. We uphold the Constitution of our country and value these institutions that support our democracy. The fact that we have such independent institutions to which members of the public can refer cases of alleged maladministration or any other concerns demonstrates the success of our democracy in only 17 years of freedom. It is a reminder of what we have achieved, as a people, after more than a century of colonial oppression and apartheid.

Government will co-operate with the Public Protector and take this matter to its conclusion. I thank you, Speaker.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, through you to the hon President, at the launch of the African Ombudsman Research Centre in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal on Tuesday, you stated:

We respect the work of the Public Protector even when we disagree with the findings or censure from that office. We respect our Chapter 9 institutions, as well as the judiciary and Parliament, the other two independent arms of the state.

Mr President, why then did your Cabinet bizarrely announce on 3 March that it has "instructed the Secretary to Cabinet and the Minister of Justice to interact with the Public Protector's office on the report," thereby seemingly challenging the contents of the Public Protector's report rather than addressing the serious finding of misconduct against the National Police Commissioner? Your admission today that you are awaiting that report from the Secretary of Cabinet and the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development implies that the finding and sanction of the Public Protector must be sanctioned, which undermines the independence of this very Chapter 9 institution. What is your position thereon?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I fail to understand, in the question, what it is that is alleged to be a step that is undermining the Public Protector's office. I don't get it, because the hon member says that Cabinet took a decision that the Secretary to Cabinet should interact with the Public Protector. Now, does that undermine anything? I don't think so, because it means that Cabinet may want to get clarity on the matter. If you recall, that report states things, specifically, that the Secretary to Cabinet must do, as well as the Minister. So, why should the Secretary to Cabinet not interact to clarify issues, so that he is clearer on what to do about the determinations that have been made by the Public Protector? I don't see anything undermining the office of the Public Protector. I see collaboration and co-ordination in an attempt to address the issues. [Applause.]

IsiZulu:

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyathokoza Somlomo, Mhlonishwa Mongameli uma ngabe kone iphoyisa noma yiliphi elinye noma ubani omunye othintekayo emaphoyiseni, siyaye sizwe kuthiwa ngakusasa usenqunyiwe emsebenzini ngoba kusenziwa uphenyo.

Maningi amacala asenzekile engingawasho. Ngingakuchitheli isikhathi angizukuwasho. La amaphoyisa noma abathintekayo kutholakala ukuthi kufuneka bayohlala ekhaya ngoba kusaphenywa. Kwenzekani kulokhu Mongameli?

UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, ngilibonge nelungu elihloniphekile ngombuzo walo. Ubab' uGatsheni ngenkathi ebuza umbuzo wakhe uthe uma kutholakala abonileyo, abathintekayo emaphoyiseni, ngamanye amagama abenze amacala. Kuye kuthathwe izinyathelo ezisheshayo yini?.

Ngicabanga ukuthi la ukhuluma ngodaba lapho kube khona uphenyo luphenywa nguMvikeli Womphakathi, ngemuva kokuthi kube khona obeke isikhalo. Wathi uyasola ukuthi kukhona okungahambanga kahle la, akashongo ukuthi mphenyi phenya nangu lo usenze icala. Umahluko ulapho ke.

Uyaphenya-ke umphenyi,[Uhleko.] uma esefika ekugcineni, eseyiphothula indima yakhe. Usethi uthola ukuthi sengathi kukhona okungahambanga kahle. Usethula umbiko okufanele ukuba awethule kuhulumeni. Yiwona lona esixoxa ngawo ukuthi kwenzekani ngawo manje. Akufani-ke Boya beNyathi nokuthi kukhona owonile nje ngomuntu owenze icala, okufanele ukuthi ahlehliswe. Kwehlukile lokhu.

Kube kukhona osolile, wase ethi akuphenywe. Kwaphenywa, kwathi uma sekuphothulwa umbiko. Umbiko wase ubonisa ukuthi sengathi kukhona okungahambanga kahle, uthulwa kulabo abafanele okuyibona okufanele bathathe isinqunmo. Umehluko ulapho Gatsheni. Yingakho -ke kulokhu ngingathathanga izinyathelo ezifana nalezi engizithathele abanye. [Ihlombe.]

Afrikaans:

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker en agb President... [Speaker and hon President...]

English:

... and I will change to English just now if the Speaker allows me.

Afrikaans:

The SPEAKER: Wag 'n bietjie. [Just wait for a moment.]

English:

Just hold on. Your isiZulu is different from his, hon Groenewald. [Laughter.]

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Thank you, Speaker. I didn't know that I would get so much reaction from the President. I am honoured. [Laughter.] Are you ready, hon President?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I am.

Afrikaans:

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Dankie. Agb President, ingevolge die Grondwet stel u die Kommissaris van Polisie aan. Net u kan die Kommissaris van Polisie ontslaan. U stel die Minister van Openbare Werke aan. Net u kan die Minister van Openbare Werke ontslaan. Ek wil vir u vra of indien 'n verdere ondersoek dieselfde bevinding maak as die Openbare Beskermer - dat hierdie twee agb lede hulle skuldig gemaak het aan wanadministrasie en, na my mening, aan korrupsie - sal u hulle dan ontslaan? As u dit nie doen nie, dan maak u 'n klug van u eie woorde toe u gesê het dat u korrupsie gaan uitroei. Dankie, agb President.

English:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, and I am sure that the hon member knows very well that he is just expressing wishes, just expressing what could happen if this happened. We are dealing with a matter here which is real. Firstly, I have indicated that the Public Protector has a procedure that requires the report to be presented, and the report must be looked at. On the basis of that, it is determined whether there is a case or no case.

Now, your question is almost like asking a judge: Will you, at the end, convict this person if you find this person guilty? [Laughter.] Of course, the answer is yes, because once the case is presented, either you find a person guilty or not guilty. If a person is found guilty, there is one way to take action, and that is to convict. If he is not guilty, you don't. Even in - I just want to take the question further, because we need to be very clear. Even in a court of law, the conviction is not the same. The judgment is not the same, even if a person is found guilty. At times, he is given a warning; at times, the judgment is very lenient, depending on the gravity of the crime committed. There is no doubt about it. Of course, yes, it is part of the law. There is nothing outside of the law.

So, I am just saying that the issue, really, is academic, because you know for a fact that once a person is found guilty, once that has happened, a decision must be taken, and one has to determine what type of action should be taken. There is no doubt about it. [Applause.]

IsiZulu:

NK L S CHIKUNGA: Somlomo, ngiyabonga Mongameli, umbiko woMvikeli Womphakathi wethuliwe nakule Ndlu yesiShayamthetho ezithebeni zawo. USomlomo wale Ndlu ube esewudlulisela emakomidini amabili lamaphoyisa nelemisebenzi yabantu. Nawo-ke lama komidi abengakaqali ukuyibuka le ndaba.

Ngiyacabanga ukuthi kungaba ubuchule uma ngabe uMongameli avuma lokhu engikushoyo ngokubona kwakhe ukuthi silinde, sibuke lesi Shayamthetho ukuthi sithini ngale ndaba? Angazi noma ngabe uMongameli uyibuka kanjalo, mina bengicabanga lokho. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]

UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, vele lungu elihloniphekile izinto zihanjiswa kanjalo. Njengoba nje le Ndlu yesiShayamthetho nayo iwumukelile umbiko, ngeke nje ivele ithi iwumukela ibisikhipha isinqumo. Kufanele ukuba iqale iwubheke bese iwuchubungule bese ithola amaqiniso kahle hle. Ithi-ke uma isiwatholile bese ithatha isinqumo ukuthi ifuna ukuthini.

Uma isivumelene ngale ndaba njengoba isisemakomidini nje, bese ithi siwubukile umbiko naku esesikutholile. Sibona ukuthi-ke isiphetho sale ndaba sithi. Hawu! Kanti nePhalamende lakho lisawuphethe lombiko bengithi yimi ngedwa kanti nani nisawuphethe. [Uhleko.] Nikhala ngani pho? Kwenziwa njalo lunga elihloniphekile ngivumela nawe kakhulu. Siyavuma.

Source: Unrevised Transcript, Hansard, March 17 2011

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