Transcript of the exchange in the National Assembly over Deputy Minister Kebby Maphatsoe's allegations against Public Protector, Thuli Madonsela, Tuesday, September 9 2014:

COMMENTS OF DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE ABOUT PUBLIC PROTECTOR BEING CIA AGENT

(Minister's Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Deputy Speaker, I reject the allegations about what I said on Sunday in the newspapers. I refer all others to the record. [Interjections.]

Mr D J MAYNIER: You are an idiot!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I stand my ground that she was never a member of uMkhonto weSizwe. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hold on hon, Deputy Minister. Hon members who shouted "you are an idiot"? I mean this is out of order.

Mr D J MAYNIER: Speaker, I shouted "idiot", because the hon Deputy Minister of Defence is an idiot for saying what he said. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, are you finished? [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am going to come back and rule on this. May I be allowed to come back to it? Finish your remarks, hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: I am done!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are done? Okay.

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Dr C P MULDER: Deputy Speaker, because of the interjection, the Deputy Minister ended his speech by saying that he denies that he said that the Public Protector is a member of uMkhonto weSizwe. That's what he said and Hansard can show that. So, did I understand the Deputy Minister correctly? Is that what he wanted to say to the House?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, go ahead.

Mr M T KUBAYI: Deputy Speaker, it is actually shocking to see a member of the House standing boldly, as hon Maynier did ... [Interjections.] ... openly saying to another member, who is an adult - not even hiding it - that he is an idiot. He must withdraw and apologise.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, we have a choice here of our language gradually deteriorating into hectic insults. You will not be able to cope with that and I am suggesting that ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I haven't recognised you and you are speaking.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Okay, but will you recognise me immediately after you have fished speaking?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Eh, eh ... take your sit hon member. You know that you will be recognised. Take your seat. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE EFF: Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: And don't do this again. I am warning you not to speak before you are recognised because you know is not supposed to be done in that way.

Hon Maynier, the language you choose to use in the House has a direct effect on what will happen in the House next. And I would like to suggest strongly that you desist from using that language in the first place because it's incorrect for you to do that. If you respond to a member who is speaking in the House by calling him an idiot then you are directly inviting language that will not be okay in the House. Do you recognise that, hon member?

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: Hon Deputy Speaker, could I have your attention please?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

The MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS: I thought that the hon member from the ANC pointed out that the language used by hon Maynier was unparliamentary and, therefore, requested you to ensure that it was withdrawn.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I will come back and rule on this matter. [Interjections.] Hon member, you are recognised, go ahead and then I will rule on this matter thereafter.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Deputy Minister of Defence and Military Veterans is misleading this House. He did say that Thuli Madonsela is a spy of the CIA and now he comes to this Parliament to lie and you leave it like that. We must not agree to have such things whereby we are misled everyday and thereafter have to go through a long process.

He must give account of why he is accusing the Public Protector of a Chapter 9 institution because of the findings that she has made in terms of the President of the Republic. He must withdraw the lies that he has given to this House, please.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, to both of you hon members: Starting with hon Maynier, I would like you to withdraw you reference to the member as an idiot.

Mr D J MAYNIER: Deputy Speaker, with respect, I am not going to withdraw my remark because I am simply saying what most South Africans believe about the Deputy Minister's statements in respect of Thuli Madonsela, the Public Protector.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, if you refuse to withdraw, then you are requesting me to request you to leave the House. If you refuse ... if you refuse!

Mr D J MAYNIER: Deputy Speaker, I refuse to withdraw my remark that the Deputy Minister of Defence is an idiot, because he is an idiot. [Laughter!]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have heard you! Hon member, you are defying the Chair and I request you to leave the House.

Hon Shivhambu, you are not supposed to say, an hon members is lying.

Mr J S MALEMA: He is lying! He is lying! He is lying! Wow!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, may I be given guidance on how to tell the House that the Deputy Minister is lying? Because he is lying. How do I say it? He is not telling the truth. How do I say it? What is the parliamentary language to say someone is lying? If it is an issue of semantics, please guide me.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are not supposed to say that a member is lying, unless you bring a substantive motion.

Mr J S MALEMA: Deputy Chair!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, you can't speak before I recognise you.

Mr J S MALEMA: On a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, you can't speak before I recognise you, hon member. [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: I am not speaking, I am calling for order! I am not speaking! [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, don't put words in my mouth.

Mr J S MALEMA: I am calling for a point of order, I am not speaking! I am rising on a point of order. I am not speaking. May I be recognised, Chair?

The DEPUTY CHAIR: No!

Mr J S MALEMA: No, you can't deny me. What do you mean no? [Laughter!] A point of order is part of the Rules and is allowed in this House.

The DEPUTY CHAIR: Yes, it is only if the Presiding Officer recognises you.

Mr J S MALEMA: Can I be recognised on a point of order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Not now.

Mr J S MALEMA: When are you going to recognise me?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! [Laughter.] Hon Malema ...

Mr J S MALEMA: No! No! No! Chair, you must not chair the meeting like that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, let me explain to you. You see ... [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: No, I'll sit down as long as you recognise me. I have no problem sitting down.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes. [Laughter.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Recognise me, because I want to attend to this Deputy Minister. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please! Please sit down, hon member. With respect, please sit down.

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Deputy Speaker, the Deputy Minister is lying, because he said, and is not denying it, that Thuli had handlers and that makes her a spy. And then he comes back and wants to play innocent when he repeatedly called Thuli a spy. We are not going to pretend that we are not aware that the Deputy Minister has misbehaved. If there is any person who must be asked to withdraw and apologise, it is the Deputy Minister and not the hon member of the DA. [Interjections.]

Mr K B MANAMELA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker, on a point of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what are you rising on, hon member?

Mr K B MANAMELA: My concern, Deputy Speaker, is that you are allowing, essentially ... [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: But Chair, on a point of order: I rise here calling for a point of order and you don't recognise me. I insist on speaking. The next thing, the ANC calls for a point of order and you recognise them. [ Interjections.]

Mr K B MANAMELA: We must indicate, Chair ... [Interjections.]

Mr J S MALEMA: We cannot allow this type of things in this House! [Interjections.]

Mr K B MANAMELA: Yes, but we must indicate, Deputy Speaker, that there is no one who has a monopoly on causing chaos in the House. And we cannot allow a situation wherein the Deputy Speaker, who is presiding over this meeting, is being defied. We are not going to allow that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, just let me say this to you: Before I proceed, hon Malema, we request here that we be respected. In other words, if you want to speak and object, as you have been telling us in the House here, allow us to give you the opportunity to do that. If you rise and you start speaking immediately, you are creating disorder. Okay? [Interjections]

No, it does not matter who it is. Hon members, it has always been ruled in this House that making unsubstantiated allegations against the integrity of any member is unparliamentary; nor may improper or unworthy motives be imputed to any member.

This House has, by resolutions adopted on 16 September 1997, confirmed that a member who wishes to bring any improper conduct on the part of another member to the attention of the House should do so by way of a separate substantive motion comprising a clearly formulated and properly substantiated charge; and except upon such a substantive motion, members should not be allowed to impute improper motives to other members, or cast personal reflections on their integrity as members, or verbally abuse them in any way.

Members may therefore not make insinuations or accusations of improper conduct on the part of their fellow members except by way of a properly substantive motion.

I appeal to hon members, I want to restate what was stated, hon members therefore should not allege to improper conduct by other members, unless they have evidence of such improper conduct which they should bring to the attention of the House by way of a substantive motion. Otherwise, the House will degenerate into mudslinging. And this is what we are trying to avoid.

Whatever you believe - whether you are right or not - it is only proper that here in the House, the manner in which we conduct ourselves must at least be exemplary of how we would expect others to treat us elsewhere, not only in the House.

Otherwise, people would resort to unacceptable things, if we do not take that approach. We cannot accept it. There is no basis or any excuse for this, no matter who believes what about whom in this House.

This my plea. Hon members, I suggest we proceed.

Source: Unrevised transcript, Hansard.

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