Unrevised transcript of the debate in the National Assembly, Parliament, Cape Town, Wednesday, July 23 2014

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION (BUTI MANAMELA): Deputy Speaker, hon President, hon Deputy President, and hon members, as the President has correctly said, the responsibility of our department in the Presidency will be to go further than oversight of the National Youth Development Agency, NYDA, by championing and monitoring youth development in government.

The youth of our country is at the centre of the success of finally breaking the back of colonialism and apartheid and building a new future for the country and nation based on the National Development Plan, NDP, and the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP. The idea that young people are disillusioned and unwilling participants in the democratic discourse was disproved by their high turnout when they voted for the ANC in the last election.

We should therefore engage them constructively in building a new youth development path. We are currently working with youth formations to review the National Youth Policy and to develop an integrated youth development strategy as part of this new youth development path.

At the centre of the new youth development path is the prioritisation of employment, education and youth enterprise. Before the end of this year, our Ministry will table proposed amendments to the National Youth Development Agency Act. The purpose of the amendments would be to ensure that we strengthen the NYDA in its endeavour to facilitate, co-ordinate and mainstream youth issues on developmental issues.

The hon Mmusi Maimane says that we should scrap the NYDA.

HON MEMBERS: He's right! He's right!

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: What we say - the DA has always said that the Umsobomvu Youth Fund and National Youth Commission should be scrapped. How wrong are they on this call? In August 2013, Pondering Panda conducted a public perception survey of the NYDA. The survey found that 84% of the youth who participated in the survey believes that the NYDA is an important and a relevant institution to have in South Africa. [Applause.] This comes as no surprise because in 2012-13, the NYDA, which the hon Mmusi Maimane says should be scrapped, gave a second chance to 8 000 young people who had failed their Grade 12 exams to rewrite those exams and has recorded a pass rate of more than 87% for those who rewrote the exams. [Applause.]

Potlako Makua, an 18-year-old teenager from Sebokeng, two years older than hon Mmusi Maimane's sister, passed her matric through the rewrite with five distinctions, was given a scholarship by the NYDA, and is today pursuing a degree in astrophysics. She has now kissed poverty goodbye. [Applause.]

The NYDA, which the hon Maimane says should be scrapped, has assisted more than 589 young people in getting micro- and small enterprise grants. B K Moleko is one of the beneficiaries of the R25 million that the NYDA handed out. He now runs a farm in De Deur. He was given this grant and has today employed more than 20 young people on his farm. The NYDA that the hon Maimane says we should scrap has structured one of the largest partnerships for youth enterprise funding with the Small Enterprise Finance Agency, Sefa, and the Industrial Development Corporation, IDC, worth R2,7 billion, of which R100 million has already been paid out to young people's enterprises for assistance in their small businesses. [Interjections.]

The NYDA that the hon Maimane says we should scrap last week announced a partnership with Sasol, Absa, and MTN - Step Up to A Start Up - which will see more than 15 000 young people have access to information and support on how to become entrepreneurs. When we are done with supporting the NYDA, when we are done with that, the Mmusi Maimane will be singing in an advert saying, "iNYDA ayisafani"... [Laughter.] ...  because we would have given it the support that it needs to become of service to the youth of this country.

The NYDA will not be scrapped; the NYDA will not be closed down; the NYDA will receive the necessary support from us to ensure that it serves all these young people, and many more, that it has served over the years. We are turning the corner in supporting the NYDA, and we hope that, in a couple of months, we will be announcing the fact it has reduced its wage bill significantly.

Last month, hon President, when the hon Julius Malema was speaking here in response to the state of the nation address, he said, "On a personal note, this can only be translated to you by the only reliable Minister you have in your Cabinet, Dr Aaron Motsoaledi ...

Sepedi:

... le ge o ka itima meetse o tla bona e nwele." [Even if a person is denied an opportunity, he will find one elsewhere.]

English:

This has to be explained, President, in context. The leader of the EFF was simply saying that even if you expel him from the ANC, he will always find a way back into politics. It explains how bad the idea of the EFF is and that irrespective of the propaganda that they may preach, it remains a personal project. That individual is the hon Malema who came to repeat the fact the EFF is his personal project here today in response to this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Let me take you down memory lane, hon President and hon members. In the 1920s, there was an incident in Germany. A young man, who was supposed to be at the helm of the country's political elite, was sidelined and, ultimately, elbowed out of the limelight of German political elitism, dismissed as unstable and politically immature. Not to be deterred from what he believed was a calling - a sad date with political destiny - he started mobilising others who were moved by his rhetoric and stood to benefit from his ascension to power.

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what do you rise on?

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, is it parliamentary for the hon Buti Manamela to make an inference that ... [Interjections.] ... a leader of another political party, in the nature of the comparison that he is making with an unknown German leader, can that be parliamentary? I ask the Deputy Speaker to rule. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: That is not a point of order. Thank you very much. Proceed, hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: Addressing beer halls, opening public theatres and using other valuable public platforms, he drew some of the German unemployed and working class into a singular vision and dream that their plight was not because of the global economic crisis at the time but that the problem were the Jews. He said: They eat our bread; they sleep with our desperate and hungry wives; they keep our husbands from ...

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member? What do you rise on?

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, the issue of the Jews is a very sensitive matter, and comparing an EFF leader with anti-Semitism is unparliamentary. Can you please make a ruling on that? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, we will come back and make a ruling on that. Proceed, hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: The conditions of the working class in Germany drove them to believe in shortcuts, half-baked solutions, demagoguery, and political opportunism and resulted in genuflecting before the fake gods. This happens often in history, although not a permanent or common historical feature. Marx wrote:

Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.

At the time of Marx, the clowns would not have appeared on the stage of history as frequently as in ours to mock his dialectics and to expose our travesty in accepting these political frauds as the alternative to the society we desire. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, can we get a ruling on what Buti says when he refers to "political frauds"? Who is he referring to? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Manamela. Yes?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Who is hon Manamela - Buti ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is hon Manamela. His name is Manamela Buti or Buti Manamela.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member, do not do that. You know that you should address every member as an hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Yes, because he is disrespecting people and misleading society, you must address him by his name!

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright, take your seat, hon member.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Can he please refrain from calling people "political frauds"? Please. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will deal with that. Proceed, hon member.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: Each time they appear in history - worse if they succeed - the transition Marx explained is reversed for lifetimes, and workers' struggles go on auto-reset. We are forced not to only deal with our own internal weaknesses but to also divert some of our own energies to these personages whose efforts, which at face value seem legitimate and genuine, are, in truth, a reversal of what our original and historical revolutionary task is. The reason why the EFF is a painful idea is because it is not based on any cause and course of the people whom it claims its visions represent, which is the working class and the poor youth. It is the dream of an individual to be in office, whatever the cost. [Applause.]

Hitler, for instance, declared his ideology as national socialism. It sounded nice ...

Mr G A GARDEE: Can we call for an order, Deputy Speaker? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, we will address that matter because we have to look at Hansard.

Mr G A GARDEE: There is an order that is new. It is not an earlier matter, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your order, hon member?

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, we want to check whether it is parliamentary to infer and refer to another hon member as an individual who wants to be in this House at all cost? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We hear you, hon member, and I take your challenge to rule on it. Absolutely, we will rule on it. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: In fact, Hitler's national socialism resonated with the people, the poor people and the working class. It was more popular than the socialism of the German Socialist Party. Those who disagreed faced the wrath of beer hall drunks or the Schutzstaffel, SS, as we saw yesterday at the Gauteng provincial legislature. [Interjections.]

But their politics have become more a function of public relations ...

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon Manamela, on a point of order ... Hon member, take your seat. Hon member?

Mr N S MATIASE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Earlier on, we raised the issue of the consistent application of Rules. A flawed Rule was exposed here, Rule 62. Consistently, we have been calling for the consistent application of Rules by the Chair. [Interjections.] I want to understand from the Chair: If members from the EFF are referred to by the hon Manamela as drunkards, would that be parliamentary, and would that be alright if we hurled insults at the ANC members in this House? I want the Chair to rule hon Manamela out of order.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We have the rulings that we will make on previous points of order. We will do so soon. We will rule on those that you have raised as well. There is one that we will rule on immediately.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Hon Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what do you rise on?

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I do not understand what your ruling is there. We are raising points of order, and you are supposed to provide rulings to guide this gentleman speaking here. [Interjections.] Can you please give us guidelines in terms of how to proceed here? Really, if we are raising everything, and you are postponing all these issues, you are leaving this guy to speak lots of nonsense.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, allow me to rule, and I will rule when I am ready to do that. Proceed, hon member.

Mr N S MATIASE: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What do you rise on?

Mr N S MATIASE: The hon member has the guts to make an inference to Hitler. He made mention of that name now - Hitler - and he is moving on down a slippery road of inferring that either members or leaders of the EFF are equal to Hitler. That is a very serious inference.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, I said to you that I would make a ruling. I have a ruling here, and I will make that. Take your seat. Hon Manamela ...

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: Thank you. The last time I spoke at this podium ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Manamela, hon Manamela! Just hold on. Hon members, on this matter of Hitler, it is reported that a ruling had been made previously on this that - as it is suggested and as you said, hon Manamela - the comparison with Hitler is unparliamentary. If that is the assertion made, then that would be unparliamentary. Now, hon members, hold on. I have told you that I have to look at the Hansard because it must accurately reflect what was said here. It cannot just come from my head or your head; it has to be based on a recorded statement that we can refer to so that what comes out as a ruling is based on what was actually said by all parties. So, hon Manamela proceed and keep in mind that we have to come back to those issues.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: Thank you. If the beret fits, you will wear it. 

Mr N S MATIASE: On a point of order, Chair ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, what is your point of order?

Mr N S MATIASE: Do you draw the hon Manamela's attention to the fact that his comparison is flawed? 

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no, no!

Mr N S MATIASE: You called him to order; you did not ask him to withdraw his utterances.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member ...

Mr N S MATIASE: What would be fair is that he should be instructed to withdraw his utterances.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Alright, hon member. That, I have told you, I am unable to do. We need to refer to the Hansard and say: Hon Manamela, this is what you said. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, Buti has been making ... you say that it is unparliamentary to make comparisons to Hitler. Buti has been speaking here and making comparisons to Hitler. You must tell him to withdraw. [Interjections.] Why can't you do a simple thing like that?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Because, hon Shivambu, we work on the basis of the National Assembly Rules, which you are saying must be applied consistently. Consistency will only emerge if we reflect accurately on what is written and what is indisputable in writing. To have your word against his is not helping.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, the last time Buti spoke here, we raised the point of order. You made the same point that you would look at Hansard. The House is again sitting. You have not come back to us with the report indicating what your ruling was on the issues that you were supposed to look into in Hansard. So, it looks like everything else - you leave this guy to speak lots of nonsense here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu, I did not give you a chance to speak. Take your seat, and let's proceed. Proceed, hon member.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, perhaps we should assist the hon members. Rule 70 states that "after the point of order has been stated to the presiding officer by the member raising it, the presiding officer shall give his or her ruling or decision thereon either forthwith or subsequently." You have indicated your approach and that you will give a decision. I would really suggest that hon members do address each other honourably and that it might not be appropriate to have your hand in your pocket when you address the Chair. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I suggest that we proceed. The Rules are clear. Allow us to proceed with order. This is a debate. Let's allow it to proceed.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: In fact, the EFF is the first political party to break its electoral promises by jumping into the buffet of Parliament's menu, justifying why they are staying in parliamentary villages when they promised to go and stay in informal settlements, and being inconsistent ... [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon member, what do you rise on?  

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, this guy is again misleading Parliament. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon member! Hon member, do not do that.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: He is misleading Parliament. There is no electoral promise of the EFF.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He is "hon member," firstly, and you have not told me on what basis you rise.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: It is difficult to call people who are dishonourable "honourable". There is no Rule that says we must call each other "honourable." [Interjections.] There is no such Rule stating that we must refer to Buti as "honourable". He is not an honourable person, and we must refer to him as Buti. We know him as that. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Shivambu ...

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: There is no Rule that says we must call Buti "honourable". There is not such a thing, unless you are referring to me. How do we refer to people who are not honourable as "honourable"? He is lying now saying that there is an electoral promise that we had made. Where have we made such an electoral promise?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you cannot say that an hon member is lying. You should not - you cannot say that. [Interjections.]

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, what he is saying does not reflect the reality.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you cannot say that a member is lying. You have to withdraw it.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I withdraw that, but I record the point that what he is saying is not a reflection of reality.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do not be conditional, hon member. You have to withdraw.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I withdraw that, but I record the point that what he is saying is not a reflection of reality.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Do not be conditional, hon member. You are making it difficult for us. It is appropriate for you to withdraw the statement properly so that even in your case, when matters like these happen to you, you feel that you have been treated fairly. So, withdraw so that we can proceed fairly across the board here.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker, how do I say that he is not telling the truth? What is the proper word? At least guide me so that I know. The reality is that he is not telling the truth.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There are Rules to be followed in this House, and you are supposed to obey those Rules.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But give me guidance in terms of what I should say to indicate that this guy is lying.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You insist on referring to him as "lying." Do not do that. Withdraw the statement.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Well, he is not telling the truth.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Withdraw what you have just said.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: What do I withdraw: the word or the fact that he is not telling the truth? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Withdraw you calling him a liar.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Alright, I withdraw the word "lying", but he is not telling the truth.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you are creating problems for the House.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I withdraw the word "lying", but I am saying that he is not telling the truth.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sit down, hon member! We will come back to that. Hon Manamela, proceed. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: It is also more about attacking personages and subjecting them to persecution, on the one hand, and saving personalities from current prosecution than leading a so-called national struggle. The pain of this personal project lies in the idea that we can decorate our foreheads with berets merely to illustrate our hatred of individuals whom we declared, opportunistically in 2008, firstly to be willing to kill for, then to kill, and ultimately refused to wish them recovery when they were sick - all in the name of an ideology. Just when the President was not well, he said: No, we are not going to wish him well. So, there are these inconsistencies.

The workers' struggles in our country cannot be dependent on the short-term political misfortunes of individuals. We cannot be driven into struggles that are merely about people's change of fortunes or misfortunes which are presented as collective political setbacks when, in real terms, the same struggles will be pursued through the ANC and the alliance. [Applause.]

In conclusion, I am not a party hack. If at any time I prefer the party position, the party collective, and the party discipline over the class, it will, at all times, be in the interest of the class, not in personal interest. The painful idea that we narrow this thesis even further, prefer the person over the party and even bow before the individual, makes me shake in my boots. Here before our eyes, not Eugene Terre'Blanche, as hon Maimane suggested earlier on, but Adolf Hitler has come back from the dead. [Interjections.] I thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Manamela ...

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, can you recall the speaker? Can you recall the member?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Manamela!

Mr G A GARDEE: You are recalled, man! Hey!

IsiZulu:

Hheyi, awuzwa kanti? Woza la! [Hey! Are you deaf? Come back here!]

English:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, you cannot do that! How do you do that? How do you scream like that? You are out of order! Hon member, you are out of order!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Sit down, please! Take your seat.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: But can you record ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have not recognised you. Sit down. Hon Manamela, this issue of comparing another member to Hitler has been ruled as inappropriate in the past. So, you should not be doing that. We request that you withdraw it.

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: Deputy Speaker, I request that you check the Hansard and check whether I had actually ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon member!

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: ... referred to any member as "Hitler", and if you find from Hansard that I had referred to any member as Hitler, I will withdraw. I have never been asked to withdraw in this House, because I know and understand the Rules.

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! On what point of order?

Mr G A GARDEE: The hon Manamela was instructed by your good self to withdraw, not to present.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No! Hon member, do not do that. Take your seat. Hon Manamela, I request you to withdraw. We need to be ... [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: Deputy Speaker, I withdraw, but as a member, I want to state for the record that I reserve my rights. I have not compared anybody to Hitler. If the hat fits, if the beret fits, if that makarapa fits, then they must wear it.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, do not do that!

The DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: PLANNING, MONITORING AND EVALUATION: I withdraw respectfully. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member.

Prince M G BUTHELEZI: Deputy Speaker, when Prof Z K Matthews was teaching us something about defamation, he recalled an incident which took place in Parliament here where someone punched Gen Hertzog. Then The Witness, which is a newspaper in Pietermaritzburg, reported this with the headline, "Served him right". [Laughter.] That newspaper was sued for damages. Now, the hon member here said, "sizomshaya" [We are going to beat him.]. So, I hope we are not going to have a repeat of that. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Buthelezi, you are drawing our attention to inappropriate language in the House, and it is absolutely inappropriate. We do not expect you to speak like that, hon member. Can you withdraw that?

Mr G A GARDEE: Deputy Speaker, when we said "sizomshaya" [we are going to beat him], that is withdrawn, but "sizohlangana naye ngaphandle" [we will meet him outside.].

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, please do not make it conditional. [Interjections.]

Mr G A GARDEE: It's unconditional, "kodwa uzwile" [he got my point]. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members!

Mr Z M D MANDELA: On a point of order, Deputy Speaker ...

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Mandela?

IsiXhosa:

Mnu Z M D MANDELA: Masihlangane ngoku. [Let's meet now.]

English:

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member! Hon Motau.

Source: Hansard

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