Transcript of exchange in National Assembly between Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development Mike Masutha and DA Chief Whip, John Steenhuisen, Thursday, 5 November 2015

Division demanded.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT (Mike Masutha): Chairperson, on a point of order: I thought that, in terms of the Rules, at least four members should be present in a political party for it to be able to call for a division. I am now looking at the opposition benches, and I have poor vision so you will have to assist me with your better vision, but I can’t see members of the opposition on the opposition benches. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you very much.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I think the cameras should focus on the opposition benches.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: We support the division. The division. We support it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hayi man, [no, man] hon Ndlozi, what is wrong with you? [Interjections.] Hon Masutha, the number of four, which is allowed to call a division is in the House. Hon members ...

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chair, I am a blind man.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, I understand, hon Masutha.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Can you explain to me which party those four members belong to?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): It’s the DA who called for the division, and the members of the DA are here.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Are there only four of them, Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): There are five. Thank you.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Oh, are there five?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you for the information.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. Hon members ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION (John Steenhuisen): House Chairperson, it’s little wonder our justice system is such a disgrace in this country, because if that’s how the Minister of Justice ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, no, no, no. Hon member, no, no! [Interjections.] Hon member, you can’t do that.

Ms M T KUBAYI: On a point of order, House Chair: I think what the hon Steenhuisen is doing is very insensitive and totally uncalled for. [Interjections.] He is definitely aware that the hon Masutha is partially blind. Now, to come and make a joke out of his disability is uncalled for. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you, hon member. Your point has been made. [Interjections.] Hon members ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, sorry, I am not going to allow that to happen. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It’s not going to happen. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No! Oh no! [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I’m not going to allow that to happen. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No, hon member ...

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I was referring to the hon Masutha’s ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Can you please sit?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: ... clear ignorance of the Rules, to say that if that’s the Minister of Justice, I’m not surprised our country’s in the trouble it is. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen, please!

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chairperson, I think the Chief Whip of the Opposition is out of order. He shouldn’t bring his frustrations into this House. You called for a division. Let us vote for that. Don’t waste our time with your nonsense! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Deputy Chief Whip ... Order, hon members! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.]

The House divided.

[TAKE IN FROM MINUTES.]

Motion agreed to.

Report accordingly adopted.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: On a point of order, Chair: May it be recorded for the annals of the history of this country that the Official Opposition opposed the right to higher education of the people of this country by only having five people in this House. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member ...

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: ... and the second largest opposition party had only one member ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, no. That is not a point of order, hon member.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: ... which means they do not support the rights of South Africans to higher education ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon member, please! Hon Minister Masutha, that is not a point of order.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Let it go into the annals of history.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: We don’t support the commodification of education.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you.

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Your government sells education to our people! [Interjections.] We cannot be pawns of anybody who sells education to South Africans. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi!

Mr M Q NDLOZI: We reject it and there is nothing you can do about it. [Interjections.] We reject it with the contempt it deserves!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi!

Mr M Q NDLOZI: Not even your shortest Minister is here to defend it. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Ndlozi, please!

Mr M Q NDLOZI: The centre is not holding in the ANC. You can’t hold your Ministers. Not all of them are here. You have fallen. You are dead. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Where is the girl? Where is the girl? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Hon Steenhuisen?  [Interjections.] Order, hon members! [Interjections.] That wasn’t a point of order. Hon Steenhuisen?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: I see the Minister has run away, as usual, just like the Minister of Higher Education.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Oh, alright. You are not raising a point of order.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No, Chair, hold on. I am sorry. You allowed the Minister to make a statement.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): No. You are talking about the Minister. You are not talking to me. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You didn’t stop the hon Masutha!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): I recognise you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: You didn’t stop the hon Masutha!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Continue. [Interjections.] Hayi. Hayi. [No. No.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Let it be recorded for the annals of history that when the students came to Parliament to be listened to, you shot them with teargas and rubber bullets, and chased them away. Let that be recorded! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order! Order! [Interjections.]

Mr M Q NDLOZI: The centre isn’t holding. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Order! Order! The House has been adjourned. [Interjections.] Order!

Mr M Q NDLOZI: The Mace is still here! [Interjections.]

The House adjourned at 19:10.

TAKE ENDS AT 19:12

Source: Unrevised transcript