Sky News Sunrise programme, June 23 2008

Gillian Joseph: Well let's go live now to our Central London studio where we're joined by the Foreign Office Minister Lord Malloch Brown. Good morning to you.

Lord Malloch Brown: Good morning.

GJ: What is the next step forward as far as you see it with the MDC withdrawing from the, the whole election process?

LMB: Well you I think had a very good report there which said the African leaders are vital. They've now got to come out decisively and I think there's the hope they will. First President Mugabe now rules by default. He'd already exceeded the constitutional bounds by delaying a second round, so he's not even legitimate under his own constitution. He's not legitimate by so called SADC principles of elections and he's not legitimate by the AU, the African Union's requirement that its members are democratically elected.

So I think both in the AU, in the European Union, and at the UN we, the world has to agree on very tough measures to try and bring this tragedy to an end as quickly as possible.

GJ: You say that the foremost pressure must come from Africa, but so far we've seen simply the, the quiet diplomacy from President Thabo Mbeki. Do you think that really is now likely to change?

LMB: Well I don't think that President Thabo Mbeki's approach is one that is at this point shared by all African leaders. You've seen one by one them coming out much more decisively, forty three African leaders, many of them ex Presidents, ex Secretary Generals of the UN, civil society leaders, signed an open letter last week calling for the violence to end and one by one the other neighbours of, of Zimbabwe have said this has got to stop. So I think you are seeing a much more decisive African diplomacy beginning to break through.

GJ: The United Nations Security Council due to discuss the crisis in Zimbabwe today. Is there a formal mechanism to bring pressure to bear on Mugabe? What, what's their, their route forward?

LMB: Well you know so far there have only been EU sanctions against Mugabe and I think while it's premature yet to decide what the next steps are I think one would expect the UN now to put this formally on the Security Council agenda and to start deciding what steps can be taken - mediation or pressure or combination of both to kind of resolve this, because I think the one thing the world can not accept is that somehow this becomes a de facto status quo.

This, we, what everybody has seen and said during this election about its unfairness and its violence means there is now a requirement to act and to solve this.

GJ: Lord Malloch Brown, thank you very much.

LMB: Thank you.

BBC Radio 4 Today Programme June 23 2008

Evan Davis: We can't ask people to cast their vote when that vote will cost their lives. With that in mind, and it should be said many other arguments too, Morgan Tsvangirai withdrew from the Zimbabwean election. It had been a dilemma to take part in the run off presidential vote and a dilemma to withdraw handing as it does power to Robert Mugabe and the generals supporting him.

We'll talk to Lord Malloch Brown about what can be done in a few minutes but first Peter Biles reports from Johannesburg.

Peter Biles: Zimbabwe's opposition MDC admits the decision to pull out of the presidential election contest was very difficult and there are certainly mixed feelings in the party. On the face of it Morgan Tsvangirai's announcement that he's withdrawing hands victory to Robert Mugabe automatically. Mr Tsvengarai says a free and fair election was impossible and in the face of the appalling violence that has, according to the opposition, cost at least eighty six lives so far he decided he must protect the people of Zimbabwe.

Morgan Tsvangirai: The Police have been reduced to be bystanders while (indistinct) ZANU PF militia commit crimes against humanity, carrying out various acts from rape, torture, murder, arson, abduction and other atrocities.

PB: The members of the ruling party, ZANU PF, are rubbing their hands in glee, they must have realised that had there been anything like a free and fair election Robert Mugabe was facing defeat. But the Government continues to pour scorn on Morgan Tsvangirai and the MDC. This is Zimbabwe's Justice Minister Patrick Chinamasa.

Patrick Chinamasa (Zimbabwean Justice Minister): What in fact has happened is that Tsvangirai realised that he is going to move in 27th June run off decisively and he does not want to suffer the humiliation so he's now trying to avoid that defeat. The, the people of Zimbabwe (indistinct) declared war against (indistinct) we should seek to re-colonise this country but it has also been clear that Tsvangirai has not been ready for the run off.

PB: The South African led mediation with President Thabo Mbeki at the helm is now the best and probably the only chance of salvaging a negotiated settlement. Only the countries of the Southern African region, SADC, are likely to bring any pressure to bear at this stage. If SADC refuses to legitimise Mr Mugabe as president then a Government of national unity may be the solution and that's what the South Africans have been aiming for. A headline in the Johannesburg Star newspaper this morning says 'There's Still Hope' and as President Mbeke has made clear he hasn't given up.

Thabo Mbeki (President, South Africa): It's still necessary that the political (indistinct) for Zimbabwe would get together and find a solution to the challenges that face Zimbabwe. So I would hope that, that that leadership would still be open to a process which would result in them coming to some agreement about what happens to their country and that most certainly is what we would try to encourage.

PB: But none of this is easy. Robert Mugabe is adamant that he won't let the MDC opposition run the country, the MDC says it won't be a junior partner in an inclusive Government and it certainly won't want Mr Mugabe playing a significant role. But there's too much at stake for anyone to give up now.

Evan Davis: Peter Biles reporting there. Well let's speak to Lord Malloch Brown, Minister for Africa, Asia and the UN in the Foreign Office, and he's on the line from Westminster, good morning to you.

Lord Malloch Brown: Good morning.

ED:I think probably the time for words condemning Mugabe and bemoaning the situation are obviously, is probably well past. Yesterday you said if Mugabe thinks this finishes it he's in for a big surprise, what big surprise is he in for?

LMB: Well I think, you know, until now despite he's always this claim that he's under huge sanctions and everything else from the rest of the world the fact is there was a fairly limited European Union and US and Australian set of measures against him just targeting a hundred and thirty or so of his immediate cronies. There's been no global effort to de-legitimise the regime based on the fact that it's in power through, through means that the world can't accept.

And I think that Mugabe has done in recent weeks is largely unite the world against him and while, indeed, as you rightly report President Mbeki still tries to negotiate between the two sides on some footing of equality much, many other African leaders are increasingly embracing the proposition that at this point the MDC have the best claim to leading any Government in the country.

So we'll just have to put as much pressure as is possible through the AU, through the EU and through the UN Security Council to make sure there is a negotiation which represents real power on the ground where, as I say, the MDC has a much stronger popular voice I suspect.

ED: Well I suppose that really sounds like there'll be more hand wringing until, you know, until something happens. Why, why would anyone in Zimbabwe want to believe that putting on pressure, which is a set of words unsubstantiated by more action, would work?

LMB: Well I, I don't know I'm, I'm not sure why you think pressure is just a set of words. I think this ...

ED: Well tell me what the pressure is ...

LMB: ... well let's take it ...

ED: ... what are the actual things that provide pressure?

LMB: ... let's take it by steps. The African Union for example now has clear rules that it can not allow a non democratically elected President to take its seat. SADC has clear rules about what membership, SADC members have to do in terms of the conduct of their elections. Essentially Mugabe has ruled himself out of both organisations by his actions. In ...

ED: Is that enough to, to, to make him want to leave power do you think?

LMB: Well in, in let's move from there to the United Nations where global, global steps are taken either to enforce in observers to allow a second properly monitored international round or to force some change of Government. I think these are powerful steps particularly if the neighbours go along with them because they're the ones who hold the economic life line of the country. So if, as long as you accept that there are many pressures short of military action I believe there is a whole range of things that can be done which can bring this regime if you like to heel in the sense of requiring it to bend to the will of the international community and allow political change.

ED: Do you really think that will do it when you have a bunch of generals there, Mugabe willing to defy their own population, bringing the entire country to its knees, do you think not being allowed to attend UN meetings, being told that they're no longer legitimate is going to make a difference ...

LMB: Well ...

ED: ... I was just wondering really whether, in fact, ultimately nothing's going to work unless the tanks do go in?

LMB: ... well the group of generals you refer to. One of this group of six actually not a general had kids in school in Australia, the Australians have always been a leader on firm action and have announced more today, sent them home. This was critically difficult for this individual who, for whom you know it impacted his family in a way that he'd not seen before. Each of them have global bank accounts, a net worth that they've taken out of the country against a rainy day. Each of them wants to spend their money on their kids going to expensive graduate schools around the world and on having second homes in countries where they could potentially go. All of those kinds of patterns of, and networks of assets and travel are under threat. None of these individuals if they continue like this have the prospect of being able to leave Zimbabwe without the risk of some international arrest warrant leading to their imprisonment somewhere.

ED: All right.

LMB: They have put themselves beyond the bounds of international law by their actions.

ED: Lord Malloch Brown thank you for that.

Transcript of Lord Malloch Brown's comments on Sky TV and BBC Radio 4 on June 23 2008 as issued by the British Foreign & Commonwealth Office June 23 2008