Extract from the transcript of former Prasa CEO Lucky Montana’s testimony to the Commission of Inquiry into State Capture, Johannesburg, 3 May 2021
MR MONTANA: Let me start with the ANC fundraising issue. And because, Chair, I mention in my affidavit, I was drawn to ANC fundraising activities and in my affidavit I deal with that at great length, Chair.
And let me be honest, Chair, I listened to the testimony last week of the ANC President, Mr Ramaphosa, that contrasts very strongly with what I say, Chair.
The ANC worked in a particular way and as a result the ANC ended being defrauded because a lot of people would come and say we want to raise money in the name of the movement and they will say the movement, the ANC, referring to themselves. And most of them, that money does not even end up in the ANC.
When I saw this statement, Chair, I tried to meet with the Treasurer-General of the ANC, at that time Dr Zweli Mkhize, whom I have met.
I have worked with him in fact very closely and I described that in the affidavit and I have met with Dr Zweli Mkhize at the home of Maria Gomez. We discussed ANC finances and all of those things there.
Money, Chair, Ms Gomez is a businesswoman, involved not – Ms Gomez was never involved with PRASA, was never involved with Swifambo, was never involved in the locomotive tender, she was a businesswoman. I knew her and her husband very well, Chair, through our ANC activities.
So, Chair, I would be involved in many ANC activities and the unfortunate thing, I hear the leadership of the ANC will come and say you know, this is the work of some people.
No, it is a way of life in the ANC, Chair, there is not a single state owned enterprise that the ANC has not approached, Chair. Because I was a CEO ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, just repeat that?
MR MONTANA: Chair, I want to repeat it and maybe it will get on record.
CHAIRPERSON: It is just that I did not hear it properly.
MR MONTANA: Chair, I am saying the African National Congress approached state owned enterprises, it had its own conferences, it had a special section, deployed cadres including those that – the President was correct when he said not each and every person appointed in government or SOEs was appointed because he was a deployed cadre but once they are there, Chair, you will see they will be regarded as deployed cadres and there is a table there in the ANC conference.
They are approached by the ANC either as an organisation or by individual leaders of the ANC or by people who came that were raising money for the movement. Half of that money probably does not go to the – and I will explain why I am taking you through this, Chair – half of that money does not even make – get through to ANC.
Now the Swifambo contract, Chair, was never a corrupt contract, it will never be a corrupt contract and, Mr Soni, I will deal with the issue as well about the – you had the liquidators here and I watched when the Commission interviewed the liquidators.
Chair, I was in stitches including when one of the – Mr Sacks, who was in – who interviewed this thing, he says and it is there also in the transcript, where he acknowledge that I know nothing about this tender or this transaction. So the ANC approached these people.
The ANC would approach the CEOs of these state owned enterprises, public entities, asking for
...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON: And most of them, even if not maybe all of them, most of them would have been recommended by its deployment committee, I would suspect.
MR MONTANA: Who the...?
CHAIRPERSON: The CEOs of the state owned
...[intervenes]
MR MONTANA: No, not, Chair. I think not all of them, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I am saying most, maybe most.
MR MONTANA: Probably, no, Chair, because ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON: Not even that, ja. Okay.
MR MONTANA: Chair, I think – I think, in fact, you know, when – I was listening to the President very carefully.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MONTANA: And I think that – I think that – and I went as part of my review and I wrote about it on social media. The ANC leadership wants to assist this Commission.
They should not try and put blame on people. They must come and say we want to say to the country there is a certain way in which we did things. These things happened before the – even the law on funding for political parties, the way we funded our conferences, the way in which in which we – prior to major conferences of the ANC, there are tables being sold and all of those things. CEOs of companies, they are either buying these tables, Chair, or that they will get suppliers to that business to come and buy tables.
People who come, Chair, are all leaders, even for their own businesses and I described that at great length in my affidavit.
So I think – and I am a member of the ANC, Chair, I have been a member of the ANC – I joined when I was a student at Mamelodi High School. I remain a member of the ANC, I have served that organisation with loyalty and probably will die as a member of the African National Congress.
But, Chair, this thing of trying to talk about state capture, these things belongs to Zuma, it is false. The ANC is a way of life and if – and I thought we lost an opportunity when the President was here.
The ANC should have said there are certain things we used to do as a party, as an organisation, and we think, with hindsight, when we reflect on where are country is going, we are looking at the culture that is developing, the culture of corruption, we think that because we are the leading – the governing party, because of the issue of incumbency.
Yes, you will find that people who get involved in this in one way or the member are members of the ANC. But not all of them, some of them, Chair, when they got positions, they become even very close to the ANC.
People who know nothing about the ANC, who has never worked for the ANC who most of them, some of them – I mean, I see people that I regard as sell-outs, in my own language, Chair. I think you see where I stand in the political terrain, Chair.
So these are people who become – either they get appointed to positions, some of them buy their own positions, they sell even some of these things.
Now if you go back to Polokwane Conference of the ANC, the President made a joke, Chair, that you seem to know more about the ANC issues that are there. I want to link – I am coming to link it to Swifambo, Chair, but I want to deal with the bigger context because for me this issue – when I saw Popo Molefe’s affidavit and say 80 million was given to the ANC, I then had a big struggle.
I was outside of PRASA, I have worked with the ANC, I have worked with the Treasurer-General, I then had to - I wanted to find out this 80 million, what was it all about, where is coming from because I did not know, Chair, it was not like we paid Swifambo 80 million to pay to the ANC, there was never such a thing.
Auswell was approached and he asked me, Chair, and say hey, do you think it is a good idea, Auswell is involved in many other businesses, Chair, he is an engineer. He says ...[intervenes]
ADV VAS SONI SC: I am sorry Mr – just for the record, when you talk about Auswell, you are talking about Mr Mashaba.
MR MONTANA: Mashaba. Mashaba, ja. Sorry, Mr Soni. And he says ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON: But also I must just say, I know that you said you would link what you were saying with this issue but I am not sure whether you stopped on the way. I have a feeling that you ...[intervenes]
MR MONTANA: No, I have not stopped, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: I have a feeling that you were telling a
certain story and then ...[intervenes]
MR MONTANA: No, Chair, I want to deal with the ANC. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay. MR MONTANA: Linked to Swifambo and everything. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay.
MR MONTANA: But I want to deal with the – start at a broader level and narrow it down. CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MONTANA: Because last week you had the presentation, I think the President of the ANC, I am not talking about the President, the ANC was here last week.
And I want to say, Chair, without any fear, that what the ANC told the Commission can never be true, Chair.
Those of us who were in the public service before we were even CEOs, we know the ANC has a particular – had a particular way of doing things.
The ANC has come to a correct determination and this thing does not start in 2007, Chair, because Jacob Zuma is the President. If you look at the conference of the ANC, the President spoke about a diagnostic that was done at NASREC.
No, Chair. Former President Kgalema Motlanthe when he was the Secretary General of the ANC, he actually gave – he dealt with this issue at length in Polokwane, he gave a detailed report and this report, he was actually warning us against these things and say we are beginning to see a disturbing trend.
CHAIRPERSON: I actually seem to think – remember from the media at the time that the reports of the media of the report he had made in Polokwane was said to have been –
well, I am not using the words that was used but the impression I got was that he had been brutally honest to the organisation about challenges and so on.
MR MONTANA: Indeed, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR MONTANA: Chair, I agree with that, I was at Polokwane, the deployed cadre, I was not representing a branch.
CHAIRPERSON: This information is information I get from the media.
MR MONTANA: Well, Chair, if it is not ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON: Any knowledge I have is just based on what I get from the public, ja.
MR MONTANA: Chair, it is in – sorry, Chair, it is in my affidavit and I say in my affidavit, the ANC is such a massive organisation, it has got nothing to fear, it is an organisation of the people and it can say to this Commission and assist our country, we think may have created, in the way we did things, we may have created conditions for corruption, we may have created conditions for some of the things that are there.
It does not make the ANC accused number one, it is basically that it is reflecting honestly. Today you have leaders of the ANC who come because some of them, they are not in government but they will take advantage of the standing of the ANC in society, even in SOEs, they will come and approach us and try to bid and push for the interest of businesses where they involved in, this in the name of the ANC, to get money, Chair. And always the movement, the movement, the movement.
So I think that when the ANC was here last week, they must tell us each other, Chair. You said at some stage there will be a time when we have to face each other and tell each other the truth and I think the time has arrived, Chair, that the ANC hopefully it will still come back here and I think when we deal with my affidavit, Chair, I deal with what I believe the way the ANC operated. Chair, the ANC, I worked with it, they will give me a list of suppliers that the ANC owed and say we think you must assist us in this way.
They were not asking because I am Lucky from Mamelodi, they were doing that because they say hey, you have got networks, you have got influence, use it to help us. And, Chair, no one – I heard again the President says – and Popo Molefe said the same thing before you, Chair, said we do not want public funds to be used for party political activities. Chair, it is not true.
You know, when I listen, Chair, and I just walk up and down in my room when I listen to these type of things. When the ANC organises events in January 8 statement, the leadership of the ANC said to Minister Dipuo Peters, we do not have a transport plan, we want Lucky to come and help us, PRASA to help us organise this thing. Who pays for these things? And she is not told by one person in a corner, she is told by the leadership of the ANC when they make preparations, Chair.
So I think the organisation, the ANC, can take a bold step – currently they want to project it that it is those who are corrupt and those who are not corrupt and, Chair, when we go deeper into it – and I want to assist the Commission – because every – at least once a month, I will go to the ANC HQ at Luthuli House, if they do not burn those papers there, every time you go there you sign. If you say bring them and see the people who go there, you will see that CEOs would go there, Chair.
My own colleagues. I will not mention them, I do not want to speak for them, but they will tell you, Chair, that – they will even ask you, hey, we are under pressure on this thing, how do we deal with it? Because we speak amongst ourselves as CEO.
So the ANC leadership to come here and pretend that no, we have supported this Commission and everything but do not assist this Commission to solve the fundamental problems facing our society. I think it is not correct, Chair, and I am saying this not because I want to attack anyone, I want to – I said I want to come and assist the Commission.
Chair, the ANC has had lots of events, the ANC has had – some of the debt the ANC had when Dr Zweli Mkhize was Treasurer-General were sorted out by me, I had to speak to these companies and say can we deal with the ANC debt differently because some of were taking the – actually one of the days some – the sheriff of the court was on his way to attach furniture at the ANC headquarters and I was told I had to speak to a CEO of a large transport company that I knew very well and say but you do work for the country, for the government, you have this – you have got a tender and everything, can you really take furniture from the ANC headquarters for 2 000 – or rather R2 million?
Chair, me and Dr Zweli Mkhize, and I know that he
has sent an affidavit denying all of that, but I tried to track Mrs Gomez because I wanted her to file an affidavit before this Commission, is if she is not in the country, to tell – she will say, Chair, that we were meeting all the time to look at the monies for the ANC inside the country and outside.
Now when the 80 million came in – so I am dealing with the big part ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MONTANA: That the big part I am saying in this
Commission ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON: Well, before you go to the narrower part, you did refer to the fact that I said if we do not want things that according to the evidence that the Commission has heard to have happened in the past to happen again, it is critical that we be – we reflect very honestly on what it is that made those things – that made it possible for those things to happen.
MR MONTANA: Absolutely, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Because if we do not know what made it possible for those things to happen we cannot put in place correct measures to prevent them from recurring in the future and so I repeat that we, as a country, and we as individuals, we as different groups have to look honestly at
what it is that brought us here and it probably is not a single thing, it probably a number of things.
Let us look at those and then when we know what it is that made it possible for those things to happen, we can look at what it is that we should put in place, make sure those things do not happen again.
So to the extent that you really do have information that can assist in that regard we would appreciate it. So I just wanted to reaffirm that. But you were into the R80 million thing, ja.
MR MONTANA: Deputy Chair – Chair, I wanted to read,
Judge, for the record on my section on the ANC. CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MONTANA: One of the conclusions there, I just want to read them into record.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MONTANA: They are part of my affidavit, I deal with them, I say:
“Having dealt with, looking at the 52nd National Conference and the report of Secretary General Kgalema Motlanthe...”
And I said to this Commission, I said the ANC should open about the last 25 years, should be very open, and I said the:
“ANC is not on trial and should not be afraid of this challenge, it should draw strength as the party of
the overall majority of the people of South Africa and indeed the change it wishes to see in our own society. The ANC has in a way a special role in our society and should fulfil its mission, it is only through this that the ANC will remain a heritage of all the people of South Africa.”
Chair, I was disappointed when I listened to what the ANC told you in this Commission.
Our President was here and I thought that the leadership of the country will take a great leap and reflect honestly on what has happened over the past few years. We missed a big opportunity precisely because wanted to be here to say the ANC was courageous, it deal with the issue of state capture.
And if you put it in that way, you are actually starting at a particular period, you want to ignore what Kgalema Motlanthe says about the dangers of incumbency, what it does to our own society and most – some of these things, Chair, may not be criminal but you could that it start to erode.
He was there, nothing about things that I have heard, Chair, and I said on Twitter last week as the President was testifying, I said if I was DCJ Zondo, I would rise to each and every CEO of a state owned enterprise and public entity and say answer two questions, have you ever made a contribution or been approached by the ANC? Secondly, have you been approached by leaders of the ANC for their own personal businesses, Chair?
And you also then put a provision that you do not – if you were found to have told a lie, you will be prosecuted. Okay, Chair – or even if they do under – Chair, but it has been a way of life and, you see, for me, I do not like lies, I believe in the truth and I came to this Commission to tell the truth.
It does not make me less committed, less of a member of the ANC. But the ANC says we must all come here and testify before you and I thought they would raise the bar, Chair, and I want to say, Chair, without any fear or favour, we missed a big opportunity to tell the country what is happening and what we need to correct.
And I think that once the Commission has heard my – I thought we spoke about – the Commission asked the President what Dr Zweli Mkhize ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON: Said.
MR MONTANA: He confirmed but the ANC are asked, did the ANC get the 80 million from Swifambo, the ANC had issued a statement and said no. And you know what I said to Dr Mkhize in a text message? If the ANC did not get the 80 million – it was not coming from us, it was not coming from PRASA, it was not a corrupt deal and I cannot accuse Dr Mkhize of being corrupt because when this deal happened he was not even Treasurer-General of the ANC, he became Treasurer-General of the ANC later but, Chair, I was there with him at Maria Gomez’s house in Hawthorne(?) and you would come – would sit there, I would be there to discuss ANC monies and Dr – Maria Gomez, when the TG has made some of the requests and requirements, sometimes she will be given even accounts who to pay and I sit here, I listened to the President last week and the ANC washes its hands.
I think, Chair, the leadership of the ANC’s meeting to date must reflect honestly on it and say when we say we want to cooperate with the Commission, when we say we want to assist this Commission, and last week Chair it was not one of those.
I felt ashamed as a member of the ANC that we are not telling the majority of our people the true story, and I have recorded Chair, I have got a big section on the ANC here, including tenders that people in the ANC got and used their own positions, including some approaches Chair, and I am not saying that because I want to prove some anyone's wrong.
But I think that we should learn from it and say now that we have got the President that signed into law, this
legislation governing the way parties should be, but for the
ANC to pretend Chair that there - its own conferences and events are not funded from public funds, it is not true Chair. I want to put it actually, let me put it as bluntly as it is not true and this Commission, maybe should not hear from only the ANC, it must extend its time – I am now urging that let us extend our time, till the end of the year, apply for that.
Get the CEO’s to tell us what is their relationship, I am telling my party, you probably having scary things Chair
from this process. So who must said - who must provide leadership on decision, who must assist this Commission, the ANC is supposed to be the first, it's got nothing to do with winning or losing an election, it must set the basis so that when this Commission puts the recommendation, they assist our country so that some of the things - and Chair they must abandon we started Kgalema Motlanthe reflecting at the time before Jacob Zuma was President of the Republic, but he was one of us.
Maybe, maybe he wants to come and the Commission want to invite Kgalema Motlanthe former President and say, what were you thinking, what was in your mind, what was the ANC thinking on this issue, Chair? But now we are colour coding...[intervene]
CHAIRPERSON: But his report, whether he comes or not
his report may be important, ja.
MR MONTANA: May be important for the Commission
Chair and you will be able to assess it.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, he will be able to say what were the challenges that he talked about in his reports in 2007. That maybe have been based on things that had happened before 2007 and then look at the SG’s report in the Mangaung Conference and maybe look at the SD’s reports in 2017 NASREC Conference and see - because I have a suspicion that some of the things are the same that keep on being mentioned.
MR MONTANA: Chair, hear from a deployed cadre, I did not apply for a job a Luthuli House but the ANC gave me a lot of duties as one of their trusted people and it is a way of life chain in the ANC that when you are in that position, you also have to find a way whether directly or indirectly, to assist the ANC.
It is a culture that is there and it is a culture that members of the ANC and its leaders and I am not – I am talking at the general level, I am not really – they do approach Chair, to even for their own businesses Chair and say hey man Montana, can you help us we are working with this people, they are making contribution to the movement and everything and some of it has got nothing to do with the movement. It is people, cadre’s enriching themselves Chair and
I thought the ANC would reflect honestly on this issue, Chair but enough of that Chair, for now.
Source: www.statecapture.org.za (see here - PDF)
