Interviewer: Joining this episode of talk to Aljeezera is the President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki, thank you very much for joining us.
Mbeki: Thank you for having us.
Interviewer: If we may talk about the situation in Zimbabwe, which of course you are playing a very important mediating role there. As you are aware the opposition Movement for Democratic Change is urging African leaders to put pressure on President Robert Mugabe. What's your response to those demands?
Mbeki: Well, as you said correctly, we were asked by the Southern African Development Community to facilitate the discussion and dialogue with the ruling party and opposition party in Zimbabwe which we have been doing. Quite frankly, we have avoided discussing those processes publicly because we do not believe that it is correct to conduct negotiations through the media. Indeed both parties will put all sorts of proposals to the facilitator. The task of the facilitator in those circumstances is to convey whatever the issues might be to the other side and let the sides engage one another. So whatever the issue is, you will pardon me because I can't conduct facilitation via the media.
Interviewer: Understood, I understand that you are in a very delicate position as a mediator. What if, I mean you come to a point where quiet diplomacy with all your good intentions and good efforts doesn't seem to be appreciated by the two sides and they are not responding. Is there another stage, perhaps you think perhaps the world should move on to trying to prevent a crisis engulfing the region?
President Mbeki: First of all honestly I have never understood what is meant by quiet diplomacy. I don't know, you may be able to explain to me what is meant by that. All diplomacy is quiet, if it's not quiet, then it's not diplomacy, it is something else. What we have said about the situation in Zimbabwe for a long time is that the solutions to the problems of Zimbabwe rest in the hands of Zimbabweans. It's not South Africa that is going to solve the problems of Zimbabwe or indeed anybody else. It's got to be the Zimbabweans. So what we sort to do over many years is indeed to say that to the people of Zimbabwe, to the leaders of Zimbabwe: Please get together and (to the extent that you want us facilitate that we are ready) together identify the problems. And say what needs to be done to solve the problems. I am quite convinced that indeed it remains the only correct way to go. You see we shouldn't shift the task of defining what Zimbabwe should look like to foreigners.
As a South African, we refused that during the cause of our negotiations. We said we will negotiate the resolution of the South African problem because we knew if somebody else came in and imposed their solution on us, it wouldn't last because it wouldn't be our solution. And the Zimbabwe question, the people who must find the solution, they are the people of Zimbabwe, the leaders of Zimbabwe, the rest of us must assist. The context of the facilitation that we are asked to handle which had to do with the political circumstances, trying to find the resolution to political problems of Zimbabwe. Indeed we said can't we work together to create a situation in which the people of Zimbabwe elect a government of their choice which meant you had to help to create the conditions of free and fair elections so that the people of Zimbabwe can decide; not the people of South Africa.
Indeed what's happened in these elections, I think everybody essentially agrees that what came out of the elections did represent the will of the people of Zimbabwe. There might be a contest dispute about the presidential election result and so on. But basically everybody said what we saw coming out of the municipal elections was the will of the people of Zimbabwe. In terms of what came out in the context of the house of assembly and all of these. It reflected the will of the people of Zimbabwe which I think is the correct way, not to say the solution of the people of Zimbabwe resides elsewhere. It's in the hands of the people of Zimbabwe. It has to be, that people of Zimbabwe must have the choice, the possibility freely to decide what happens to their country.
Al jazeera Interviewer: Listening to you speak Mr President, do you think that the international powers are too involved in the affairs of Zimbabwe?
Mbeki: Well we have appealed on everybody really on the basis of what I have said, we have appealed to everybody to say can we all of us please give the people of Zimbabwe enough space to solve their own problems. Because I mean if I stand out and make some prescriptions about what I as a South African want Zimbabwe to do, there will be a response from some Zimbabweans who will say who do those South Africans think they are. And indeed it's true of any other countries.
Interviewer: Perhaps the rhetoric from Washington and London isn't helpful to the situation of Zimbabwe?
Mbeki: It think it would help if all of us sang one song and that song was let's give maximum space to the people of Zimbabwe to solve their own problems.
Interviewer: Another suggestion that the upcoming Presidential runoff do you think it will be helpful if [United Nations] monitors were allowed in to monitor these elections, do you think that it will help calm the situation and instill trust in the process?
Mbeki: Well you know that I am an African, the African Union sent observers for these elections, as did SADC, as did other Africans. I'm quite certain that as Africans we are quite capable of monitoring properly, assessing properly and indeed I am sure you have seen the reports that have been issued. Pan African Parliament and so on made some critical remarks for instance about the elements of those elections, so I don't like the idea that it is suggested that as Africans we can not do this job. And therefore that must be some other people elsewhere because we are unreliable. On what basis is that said, I think we must all of us begin to respect the African people. If the Zimbabwe government invited observers from Asia, Latin America, Africa, Caribbean, the Russians so I don't know why it will be I don't why that it will be suggested that any of those observers are incompetent or dishonest or something. So the idea that we will not be able as Africans never mind others, people from Asia, Latin America, all of those people can't do a proper job unless there is somebody else as you have mentioned the United Nations, the UN observers as I understood from the secretary general of the UN, observers of UN are sent by virtue of resolutions taken by the general assembly. So anybody who suggests there should be UN observers, in terms of what the secretary general told me, they would have to make a presentation to the general assembly, as far as I know, nobody has. So then the matter will be decided by the general assembly as to whether it thinks that there is such a need or there isn't . I would imagine that general assembly would say but our countries as Africans, as Americans, as Asians, as Middle East, we are all invited. And I think all these countries have necessary competence to do the job. But surely if anybody believes that there should be UN observers . I am sure they have the freedom to present the matter to the general assembly.
Interviewer: You have been in the office now for two periods. Has the transition process to post apartheid gone according to plan?
Mbeki: It's gone very well. I think even where we come from, given the challenges that the country has faced and what it continues to face. I think its gone very well indeed in all major elements, whereas people feared perhaps that there will be a racial war, it hasn't happened and whereas people thought that we were really faced with an impossible task with regard to the matter of national reconciliation and national unity. I think that the cohesion in South African society is much much better than people expected. I think the quality of the lives of people, again given where we come from. We are talking about 300 years of oppression and apartheid. I think in a short period that South Africa has been free, much progress has been made to change lives of the people.
Of course when we took power in 1994, you know that nature of relationship between South Africa and the African continent indeed that rest of world, I think what's happened in the last 14 years placed South Africa as a normal citizen of the world, I think great progress has been made. Indeed I think the transition has gone well.
Interviewer: There has been also economic growth and wealth in South Africa but do you think some thing should be done in distribution of wealth, closing the gap between the have and the have nots.
Mbeki: I think you must always, always remember that you are talking about correcting a history of 350 years. Always, it's important to remember that because I see sometimes people think that you can correct things that have gone on, wrong things that have happened over centuries, that you can correct them in a short period of time, you can't. No country in the world that can show me that it has. So yes indeed the legacy of racism, the legacy of colonialism, legacy of apartheid is very deeply entrenched in South African society. So what you will find is racial divisions, you will enormous disparities in terms of the distribution of wealth. You will find high levels of unemployment, high levels of poverty, you will find social instability represented for instance in the incidents of crime. You will find all of these things and I am saying, anybody who expected that of these problems would have been sorted out in a short space of time after many centuries, would have expected too much. But I am saying that with regard to all of these things, I think there has been very good progress that we have made.
Interviewer: You mention the issue of crime there, the solution better law enforcement or social change in a longer period of time?
Mbeki: Both, you will find, I mean I don't think its particularly only in South Africa, you will find that the highest incidents of crimes against persons, crimes of violence whether it's murder or rape, robbery and so on, you will find them concentrated in areas that are most socially deprived. That includes problems of alcohol abuse, drug abuse and so on. It's a matter of changing that social conditions of the people while at the same time attending to the matter of better law enforcement, they have to go together, you couldn't say, you can't say rape is a police matter, you can't it's impacting on society, changing the society, changing all manner of values together with policing. So they have to go together.
Interviewer: Is there a need to speed up land distribution. Is it possible to tackle that in a way that doesn't lead to the sort of problems faced by other countries in the area.
Mbeki: Yes it is. I mean its necessary to speed up the issue of land distribution as it necessary to speed up many other things. We indeed I have adopted now, new interventions with regard to land distribution but that's not the end of the problem, the other part of the problem is that once you have given land to the formally landless, which has happened then they need enormous support. You need all the investment, you need to be able to use land production. So it's not enough to redistribute the land, I mean that's our own experience we have done that and you find that after a couple of years people want to move away from the land because they can't use it, its not giving them livelyhood and so on. So it is necessary to make interventions that really not only give people the land which is important but also give them possibility to use land productively to improve their conditions of life.
Interviewer: What the government long term plan to deal with long term energy need and challenges as you know that are power supply problems, blackout? What the government plan to deal with that?
Mbeki: Well you know that the power problem that's emerged now recently, is actually a function of growth and economic development of South Africa, I think in truth the government and other people in South African society, we all of us underestimated that rate of growth and the demand for electricity both for economic purposes and for domestic use. And so the capacity to produce was overtaken by the demand. We have got some short term and medium term interventions to make. So we will building for instance, new power stations mainly gas fired and the reason they are gas fired is because they are quicker to build and fortunately we have been able to able to secure from the major suppliers of turbines of this sort, they have committed to supply those because as you know there is a general global demand for this kind of equipment because many countries are faced with the same sort of challenges as South Africa faces so but fortunately major manufacturers have said they will be able to supply us these. Of course we currently building coal fired stations, we are working at building additional nuclear power stations and a lot of working is going on with regards to renewable sources energy. It's across the board we want to change the mix in terms of energy sources and indeed we are in DOHA this is one of the matters of the matters we have been discussing here of supplies of gas from Qatar for purposes of spreading the source of supply for energy.
Interviewer: If we may move to some other international topics and issues, South Africa recently voted in the Security Council in favor of extending sanctions against Iran. Is South Africa's position perhaps beginning to change on the Iranian nuclear issue?
Mbeki: No it isn't, you see we had taken this decision earlier and the circumstances haven't changed. It would have been illogical for us to have taken one position on day one and taken another on day two when circumstances haven't changed. It remains our view that Iran and indeed on the second resolution, we insisted on this and it was included, that Iran should be as entitled as any other signatory of the NPT to all rights that members of the NPT enjoy the development of this technology but at the same time which also a matter that we have been discussing with Iranians for a long time, every step need to be taken to give reassurances that Iran is not interested in developing nuclear weapons. So we've got to run these things together and it would be good if we could indeed have these assurances let everybody be assured that Iran is not building nuclear weapons. And indeed reassure guarantees that Iran as a signatory to NPT would be entitled to all the rights are due to signatories of the NPT then there would be no need for any sanctions if indeed we are able to move on those matters.
Interviewer: South Africa has good relations with many parties in the Middle East, what should be done in order for peace to be achieved between Israelis and Palestinians.
Mbeki: Well we supported the initiative, the conference in the United States which then said let these negotiations take place and be concluded by the end of the year 2008. We supported that and indeed we were represented our foreign minister was at the meeting and hoped indeed that the process will be moving forward. I must say that we have been very happy, when the agreement was reached between Hamas, PLO and Fata as you remember when they met in Mecca and decided to form one government, we thought that it was a very important development because it's necessary to have that Palestinian united voice in that context. It will be good if these negotiations can move forward as was visual and to conclude successfully by the end of 2008 and it will be very good if the Palestinian can act together in this matter.
Interviewer: You have worked hard for the African Renaissance, how do you evaluate those efforts? Is It possible to create African Renaissance when development remains uneven across the Continent?
Mbeki: That's precisely why you need African Renaissance. I mean if there was not that kind of challenge you wouldn't need it. Yes it is possible I think that we are moving well in term of establishing the all Africa institutions which we need like African Union, we are moving well with regard to the matter of formulation of policy. What is it that we want these institution to do so initiatives like NEPAD, the whole range of decision on a whole number of matters. We are moving well with regard to policy formulation processes, I think what is critically important is we must really strengthen the implementation institutions on the continent, that's the regional implementations institutions and the continental
because I think we are actually in a position to move forward in this whole agenda of African Renaissance. We have to do it in any case I don't think we have a choice. But I think that given that we are dealing with 54 countries I think the progress that has been made has been good.
Interviewer: President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki, thank you very much for talk to Aljeezera.
This is a transcript of the interview conducted by Al Jazeera with South African President Thabo Mbeki ay 8 2008. Issued by the South African Presidency May 10 2008
