SABC and The New Age, Discussion on State Capture
Transcript of the SABC and The New Age Business Briefing, discussion on “State Capture”, sponsored by JIC Mining (57.6% owned by Oakbay Investments[1]). Broadcast on SABC’s Morning Live, 26th October 2016.
Hosted by Peter Ndoro, with panellists; SABC acting CEO James Aguma; SABC head of Corporate Affairs, Hlaudi Motsoeneng; President of the Progressive Professionals Forum, and founder of the Decolonisation Foundation, Mzwanele Manyi; Black First Land First (BLF) founder and President, Andile Mngxitama. Member of the audience and The New Age editor, Moegsien Williams, was also provided four minutes speaking time[2].
This is the second such SABC discussion on the topic. The first also being broadcast on the SABC’s Morning Live (5th April 2016[3]), in collaboration with The New Age Business Briefing, and sponsored by JIC Mining. Held in Woodmead and hosted by Peter Ndoro, with panellists; The New Age columnist & social commentator, Pinky Khoabane; Mzwanele Manyi; Hlaudi Motsoeneng; now former CEO of Oakbay Investments, Nazeem Howa (resigned 17th October citing “health reasons”[4]); Political analyst, Aubrey Matshiqi; co-founder and Executive Director of the Free Market Foundation, Leon Louw.
Peter Ndoro: I need a definition of what state capture is. So, that we can all follow the thread of this conversation. In your view, what is state capture?
Mzwanele Manyi: I think actually the whole country is captured in truth be told. The whole country is captured. I mean including if you look at, our judiciary is all based on the Magna Carta document. So, in fact the whole country we are some kind of modernised colony if you like. So on that level we are captured, number one.
Number two, also from the economic point of view, this country is I mean the black people in this country own only 3% of the JSE. The stock exchange in this country we talking some fifteen trillion market cap of the stock exchange, for black people in this country own about 3%. The rest, this is why sometimes I get nervous to say why are people excited about the Oakbay, the Guptas, only a ten billion or so company, a ten fifteen billion company. We’re sitting here with a total, whether you put Motsepe or Ramaphosa, all of them put together, all the black people in this country, only 3% of JSE. What we should be focusing on in this country, is the fact that 97% as black people in this country we don’t own, but there is no focus on that we are busy just chasing this one family.
So, for me I’ll say we have an economy that is captured, a few companies that are, that have captured this economy, we have rating agencies that are here to make sure that the interests of the Western economies that have got a stranglehold in this country, I mean the JSE is 35% owned internationally. So actually, South Africa if the truth be told is really a modernised colony, most of us are just modernised slaves, most people who call themselves black middleclass they are just one paycheque away from poverty. A lot of people call themselves millionaires, but they’re actually paper millionaires. So actually, we are in serious trouble in this country.
Peter Ndoro: Alright, so you are saying that we’ve been captured a long time ago. I’m still going to push a little bit more about the definition of “state capture”. But before that, a lot of people will say that state capture talks about the capture of certain institutions, whether it is the NPA, whether it is government itself. Whether it is the SABC. Mr.Aguma, has the SABC been captured?
James Aguma: I don’t think the SABC has been captured. If you talk about state capture, I think the important thing you need to understand is “what makes a state?” And I think you’d have to break it down into you know the executive, the legislature, the judiciary, and the so called fourth estate which is the media.
So, those components make up what a state is, and the SABC’s just part, you know a small bit of one of those components. So, I would not think the SABC has been captured because it’s independent. We have independent board and we make sure that we remain independent.
But that does not mean that we cannot feel, you know the impact of certain people who want to capture it. And we as SABC are very aware that the areas that are captured are probably, or attempted to be captured, are probably you know the areas of procurement and so on and we putting up resistance. To thus make sure that it’s transparent and equitable. And benefits previously disadvantaged.
Peter Ndoro: Alright, Mr. Motsoeneng follow this theme of the SABC and whether it’s been captured or not. I mean we’re sitting here and right behind me I see images of The New Age, which is a company that’s owned by the Guptas. So, people at home will be saying how is it that the SABC is in partnership with The New Age, has the SABC not been captured in some way?
Hlaudi Motsoeneng: Thank you very much, Peter. No one can capture SABC. The reason why people are making noise, they know that they can’t capture SABC because some of us were there, and actually when you talk about capture. [applause]
When we talk about capture, is not about business only, it’s also about individuals and I’m going to demonstrate to you at the SABC, SABC has been captured by big companies. What I mean by that, before us SABC in Auckland Park which is head office, people were doing business and individuals, big companies, that is capture itselves. Because they were not allowing emerging business people to come on board, do business with SABC and black business people.
And if you look the policy, people are saying the policy is good in this country, I don’t know whether they good or not. Where I work, the policy they were not good. They were good for big companies and white people, not for black people. [applause] And why I’m saying this, why I’m saying this at the SABC, I mean if you want to start a business from nowhere, because some of us we represent people from nowhere, then we are there.
Why I’m saying this is because if you want to run a business and we as South Africans we are saying we want to empower people. You can’t ask people about their experience, where have you been working, and so on. It is our duty to make sure that we empower black people! We don’t ask their experience! [applause] Whether they have been doing business! That is what we are dealing with at the SABC, and to deal with that issue what we did we changed procurement policy, that noise that you are hearing, because some people have been captured, individuals people have been captured in that organisation.
And when you touch technology example, they will kill you! Because is where big business are doing business. And this big business are not South African’s business, they are outside this country, and when they come here they have what we call evergreen contracts. Evergreen contract means you have a certain date, you don’t have an ending date, that is capture! Itself! [applause] So when we arrived we said “no”, you as big companies if you come and work for SABC, we dictate for you, you don’t dictate for us. You take six months, but you also make sure that there are black people and they are not just fronting, they also shareholders!
And the witness in South Africa is when we talk about, empowering our own people, example we don’t have tools, broadcasting tools in South Africa most of the tools, we buy those tools from outside the country. These people they come here, they don’t build factories here, they come and make money and go. If I was in charge what I will do, I will say come for twenty years open factories in South Africa, make sure that there are shareholders, black people, and when you leave our own people are empowered they can produce those tools of broadcasting to do business in South Africa. [applause] That is what we need to focus on!
And I want to talk about capture, you see even some of the board the way they are appointed, I have a serious problem. Because they are captured by certain politicians! The reason why you hear SABC people making noise, that process of portfolio committee appointing board members, it is wrong, it shall stop because these people they serve politicians when they serve at SABC. And you can see even now those who resign, they resign because someone captured them from politics. [laughter]
And Jackson Mthembu, shall be the last person to talk about the SABC! [applause] Jackson Mthembu should know that I met him at a certain hotel where maybe it is capture, but no one can capture me, he knows that. [applause] That meeting was coordinated by someone, and we met, but I met so many people. But they know that no one can capture me. That is reality.
So, he shall not talk too much, and he can’t say that he’s leading the process of SABC and make noise, even before the process of portfolio committee. Because immediately when you make that noise from outside the portfolio committee actually you’re influencing the direction of the portfolio committee, they have changed people who supported SABC in that portfolio committee. We are saying already we have taken a view to say at the SABC board is wrong, we are saying that process is flawed! We’ll challenge it even in court! [applause]
Because I need to deal with this issues, you know politicians they shall focus on what they’re supposed to focus on. [applause] Because when you fight SABC, you fight this current board, you are fighting transformation! You are fighting people who are empowering black people, because this current board under professor Maghuve has done very well. SABC we don’t negotiate transformation; we implement the transformation! [applause] And we are not apologetic about it.
Peter Ndoro: Alright, just to clear up a few things. The first one is are you saying that Mr.Mthembu tried to capture you at this meeting? [laughter]
Hlaudi Motsoeneng: No. Not really capturing, but what I’m saying to you is, he shall not talk too much. Because if he talk too much, some of us who don’t want to talk about internal discussion that we have been doing with people. But SABC’s not captured, it can’t be captured by anyone. But he has an interest!
Peter Ndoro: In the SABC?
Hlaudi Motsoeneng: Yes!
Peter Ndoro: What interest is that do you think?
Hlaudi Motsoeneng: No, no. You see, I’ve don’t, I will talk at the right time! If he’s still talking too much I’ll reveal the information. [applause]
Peter Ndoro: Okay, and then just to clear up the first question I asked you actually, was about The New Age. Because you’ve gone on record saying you’re not supporting newspapers etcetera etcetera. But it seems as if The New Age has a special relationship with the SABC. Explain that one to us?
Hlaudi Motsoeneng: You like just the Guptas one, okay. [laugher] No, let me deal with The New Age. When I came there, the relationship was already there. The contract was signed already, but for us what we look at the SABC, if people have interests at heart to empower, and be positive about South Africa. We will work with such people, and we work with them based on that we share the same views about the countries that you can’t just talk about negativity, you also need to reflect positive stories in South Africa.
Because there are good positive stories in South Africa, not from politicians only, from individuals people are doing very well. So New Age played that role we agree with them on those views and we’ll always work with them, as long as we share the same views.
Peter Ndoro: Mr.Mngxitama, Black First Land First, you’ve taken a view on state capture. Help us understand what you see state capture is, Mr.Manyi says we’ve been captured a long time ago are you from the same school? Define state capture, and what your view on what we’re seeing at the moment is.
Andile Mngxitama: I think before I start I should recognise as Black First Land First, we are inspired the leadership of Hlaudi Motsoeneng. [applause]
We actually think black managers, black managers in this country including our leaders in cabinet if they were to take the same attitude this country would be transformed tomorrow. [applause] The problem we have, the problem we have, is the slave mentality amongst our leaders, our leaders are afraid of white people. [applause]
Our leaders are afraid white capital, and our leaders are captured, and when we somebody like Motsoeneng inspire, then we saying let us all follow that example. But your question is the about state capture, these question is wrongly structured question, because presupposes that in South Africa there was a time when the state was not captured.
This state was captured since 1652, with the arrival of white settlers who stole our land in this country. And our in the mistake that did happen, in 1994 the state was not transformed, the state was not given to black people. So, the big fight today, it’s white capital feeling threatened by some of the moves of President Zuma, and can I just mention three quickly.
The South African engagement of the BRICS process, means that we are no longer a colony from the point of view of being controlled by the IMF and the World Bank, we’ve the chance to run our own economy and run you know the infrastructure and so on from our own, this BRICS bank.
Number two, you know this idea by President Zuma, now again moving away from the ICC we’ve seen white capital coming in a big way. But the biggest offence was the employment of a minister Des van Rooyen, without consulting and begging the two big families that control South Africa. The Oppenheimer family and the Johann Rupert family. They’re offended because, Mr. Van Rooyen or Minister Van Rooyen, is not from their camp. Was going to go into Treasury and discover that in fact these white companies, these white monopoly companies are stealing from the state.
They control the state, and that is how they managed to have monopoly over economy. They had to bring in Pravin Gordhan by attacking the Rand, attacking the economy, and in fact saying to the President of this country if you don’t employ Pravin this country is going to be destroyed just like they’re destroyed the economy of Brazil.
So, we as BLF, very clear state capture has happened and Pravin is the representative of white capital, was appointed on the basis of white capital’s threats to the economy and to the President. It is criminal we’ve opened criminal case against that.
Peter Ndoro: So, hang on. Let’s clear that up straight away, my recollection is the President said:
“I have listened to many representations, about my decision to appoint Mr.van Rooyen, after serious consideration and reflection I have decide to reinstate Pravin Gordhan”.
Those are the words of the President, doesn’t sound like the Rupert’s picked up the phone and said.
Andile Mngxitama: Of course, the President, of course. Look we know, we have presented both the police docs [?], and the former Public Protector was protecting white capital with evidence that actually at least eight representatives of white capital. Including ABSA, Maria Ramos, and all this about top ten in the JSE, they had met top five of the ANC last December. And they told them, already they run on the Rand, if you don’t employ another minister, we are going to have a bigger problem with the economy.
The President was not given an option, and that’s why we open a criminal case including now of course went to High Court to say Pravin must be removed because it’s conflicted. The shocking thing is this, Pravin Gordhan has got shares in the same companies that insisted that he must be employed as a Minister of Finance. Now that’s a clear conflict of interest, he is there serving their interests. Look at the Oakbay matter of the banks for instance, now there’s an inter-ministerial committee setup and Pravin is asked to serve there, he never attended one meeting. Why? Because the issues of the banks was going to come up and he’s got shares in these banks, which have illegally closed the bank accounts of Oakbay’s.
So, he’s conflicted, he can’t operate as a minister and also. We are saying as BLF, R26 Billion Pravin is running around about R6.8 Billion so called suspicious transactions, we saying R26 Billion was directly stolen from the Reserve Bank under his Ministry by amongst others Johann Rupert and ABSA. He’s not interested in following that matter, there is a report was given to President for President Mbeki. We paid for it as a government, for that report, which showed that R26 Billion was stolen from the Reserve Bank.
Now if Pravin was serving the interests of black people or the country. That is the first thing he would’ve done, but he’s not interested in it in the same way that Advocate Thuli Madonsela was not interested, because both of them operate under capture of white capital. Our state is long time captured by WHITE capital! And it’s concentration of power, very few white people control this economy we must stop them, stop that. And actually, start with the land, dilute the JSE, and that’s the only time democracy will mean something. [applause]
Peter Ndoro: So, you’ve been talking gentlemen about white capital, you’ve been talking about the colonialist who came, and we’re kind of subject to all this. But the reason why this conversation in particular has come up in recent times, has been particularly because of the events around a certain family, the Guptas. We have a deputy Minister of Finance, who said in an affidavit, sworn affidavit:
“I was approached by this family, I was offered a job, and I turned it down.”
Mr.Manyi, we’re talking about JSE and so on and so forth, but perhaps if you can control who becomes minister then maybe that’s state capture.
Mzwanele Manyi: I think at the risk of affecting the grading issues of the country. I think, I think the time has come that we must lay it all bare, and what is the issue here? When I say that we’ve been captured a long time ago, including our Constitution, we’ve got a very captured Constitution. National Treasury is the only department that is mentioned in the Constitution, I think those CODESA discussion we were actually out manoeuvred in a big way in those CODESA discussions.
We have a Constitution in this country that has centralised power in National Treasury, now even President Zuma actually, cannot willy-nilly instruct National Treasury. National Treasury gets its mandate from the Constitution, this is why from time to time white monopoly capital runs to the courts, because that whole thing is designed to serve those interests.
This is why for the past decade we’ve had triple-P FA [Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act of 2000] this procurement policy, which says 80% of the tender points must go to the lowest price, when know that black people cannot compete on an equal footing with white people. You know. This is why we even have PFMA [Public Finance Management Act of 1999], MFMA [Municipal Finance Management Act of 2003], which says if you have to appoint an international company you don’t have to follow process, it’s a built-in deviation.
So, we’ve got the whole system that is designed to make sure that the white monopoly capital proceeds, succeeds, a whole system that is designed to oppress black people and all of these policies are managed at National Treasury. So, National Treasury if you like is a centre of oppression for black people in this country. This is the truth, you know.
So, even if you were to look at the entire economic cluster, you have an Economic Development Minister [Ebrahim Patel], this Ministry goes and collaborates with the DTI [Department of Trade and Industry] they come back with a BEE facilitation status, and this BEE status they give it to the IDC [Industrial Development Corporation], as we sit here now IDC invests something to the order of 200-odd-billion Rand. Now this BEE facilitation status means that wherever IDC is invested, those companies are now going to be deemed BEE compliant. IDC can now go and do rescue missions of white companies that are floundering as it were, ask them to assist them those companies are deemed BEE.
So, the whole economic cluster of government, is actually captured by white monopoly capital. This is why you are sitting here as black business you are wondering “why am I not prospering?” and so on, you’ve got laws.
I mean people say, people say that the ANC has got the best policies the problem is implementation, I’m say no that’s not true, the ANC indeed has got good policies but the problem comes when those policies move into legislation, they get infiltrated, they do not do what the ANC had resolved to do. So, you sit here with a situation where the implementation of the laws of this country continues to impoverish black people, so only talk about the capture that is the essence of it where the whole thing is designed to benefit just a few.
Peter Ndoro: Alright. Let me ask you in another way then, is it okay for a private business person and we’re not talking about any specific case now. Is it okay for a private business person to have sufficient influence, to influence who gets appointed a minister and who doesn’t?
Mzwanele Manyi: I think the confusion is in this country, people confuse lobbying, all business people they have discussions with everyone in government. It’s called lobbying, and it’s an international acknowledged and accepted practice.
You go to America you’ll find that, the problem comes when, to at which point is lobbying executive authority sitting elsewhere, that is a problem. But, and all of those things become illegal and then you have to put through a process, to check the legality of that. But the issue of influence, I think everybody influences government policy.
Peter Ndoro: So, when do we cross the line between lobbying, and genuinely holding someone who’s got power in your pocket?
Mzwanele Manyi: I think this is what Thuli Madonsela is investigating. In fact, she was given a broader brief, she narrowed it, the broader brief was for her to investigate state capture. So, this thing is broad.
So, the issue that BLF had raised about the involvement of Ruperts can also be part of the mix, but she decided to annul all of that in fact focus only on one family. Which I think is a tragedy as it were, because if you look at the size of Naspers for instance, Naspers which has also got a very interesting interest in terms of how government operates. Naspers is a huge organisation, I think it’s sitting at some trillion Rand kind of market cap versus Oakbay which is ten-fifteen billion, and all that. So, if you look at the size of the influence that that company has, I mean the government whether it likes it or not has to advertise on these platforms of Naspers.
Peter Ndoro: So Mr.Aguma, you’re a state entity in some ways because the shareholder is the government. Have you been lobbied because you’re a person of influence now, have people come and tried to lobby you?
James Aguma: Yeah I get a lot of people, coming with all sorts of ideas. One of them that I can clearly remember, is where somebody comes to me and tells me “why don’t you sell Metro FM?”, and I sit back and say that Metro FM is one of our most valuable assets. Why should we sell it?
So, there are a lot of people who come lobbying I’m aware of that. But as they say it some of the questions that arise, what you’re lobbied for is detrimental to the SABC. And when we push back, you notice that there’s a lot of reporting in the media about you know other progressive things that you’re doing.
Peter Ndoro: So, you’re talking about lobbying, which I can understand. But have you been approached beyond the point of lobbying? Where they’ve offered you money or some kind of incentive, because I think that’s where we start talking about capture proper, is when you are offered something in return for you selling their asset.
James Aguma: I don’t think they’re brave enough to offer something because maybe they’re aware that my background is about, I’m from audit and accounts. So, I’m sort of like, very straight. So, you always hear that could you sell an asset for example Metro FM, we just stop the negotiations or rather the conversations, right there and say “no it’s not available”. [inaudible] that anybody else come to me and said “here’s a sack of money, please do something that’s against us”.
Mzwanele Manyi: Our laws of our country are captured; I mean if you look at the construction sector for instance. The construction has some grading system, a control around what is called CIDB [Construction Industry Development Board Act of 2000[5]], various levels.
Now for you to be able to build a bridge you’ve got to be a level 9, and for you to be a level 9. They require everything that black people are never going to have anytime soon. [applause] You know. That is what we’re talking about [applause]. So, so, you’ve got capture at such a grade scale that it’s not funny.
You know the little discussion that the Gupta might have had with whoever, is an end issue. So small, it’s so insignificant. The issue is, we have a systematised capturing, and we’re not even aware of it. In fact, people defend this capture, people want to continue to be this poor. I think the biggest issue.
If you ask me “what is the biggest mistake the Guptas have made?” The biggest mistakes the Guptas have made, is to disrupt the eating of the white monopoly capital. [applause] This is what the Guptas have done. They have disrupted them in the mining. They’ve disrupted them in the media. Naspers is not happy that they’re sharing the platform with the Guptas. They call it Gupta-TV. But when it’s eNCA we don’t call it Rupert-TV. So, this is all part of [inaudible].
Peter Ndoro: Alright, okay. Mr.Motsoeneng, you said the SABC hasn’t been captured. A lot of people from the outside looking in look at the SABC, have accused us as an organisation of being captured by certain politicians. What’s happening now is really about the ANC, faction fighting, and that one faction is fighting the other, then we’re caught in the middle. Have you felt any influence from any political parties? Because that’s another form of capture isn’t it, to sell a certain story, portray certain politicians in a positive light, or a negative light?
Hlaudi Motsoeneng: You know, life is very interesting and I need to talk about the issue you are referring to. About lobbying, lobbying is normal, there is nothing wrong about lobbying. I have been lobbied several times to appoint this executive by business, by politicians.
But I use my own conscience and I appoint right people, and actually if someone comes to me and said “appoint this one”, I go this way and appoint other one. [laughter] Because I’m asking myself why should I appoint this one, you see, and I have done that several times at the SABC.
I even called the individuals, I said “you know what actually I was going to appoint you, but in this case, this one and that one and that one, said I should appoint you, unfortunately I’m not going to appoint you anymore, I’m going to appoint someone”. And I engage the person, people at the SABC they will tell you, if I’m lobbied, I have a serious problem, I take another direction. Because lobbying, maybe it that capturing you are referring, maybe someone is capture so they want me to appoint someone that is captured already.
So, for me it is about integrity, it is about individuals. I mean if you are a leader, even if people lobby you, you should appoint people that you believe will be able to deliver. That’s all that you need in life, but also we shall not really I mean talk about issues of lobbying. There is nothing wrong about it. People come to the SABC example, they said no you know what, Luthuli House they want one two or three. And then you ask them about Luthuli House, whose Luthuli House, I know that building is Luthuli House. Who inside! Who is that person! They will never tell you the name. They run away. [applause] So! For me it is about leaders.
You know some of us, we are not, we are not afraid. To call the shots and take decisions that we believe that our conscience are telling us to do. After 20 years, you can’t talk about transformation in South Africa. You know when you talk about transformation, you shall touch it, you shall feel it. We as South Africans, we have been denying our own people. Example the artist themselves, we have been paying millions outside, making sure that those people outside the country they have more money in their pockets, when our own people are dying poorly in South Africa. They can’t even afford to look after their family. That is what South Africa has been doing. [applause]
So, we changed that at the SABC and we’re not even apologetic about it, and we are prepared if we need to go to jail. Because the Constitution has served us in favour, black people the way it has been written, not people themselves who taking decisions but the Constitution itself. The policy itself. But the policy is very interesting, who write the policy? It’s certain SOEs, which is us, the same black people. They write policies that they know themselves, this policy they are not in the interests of their own black people. They are interests for the big companies, because this certain individuals they are captured, SABC we changed those policies, the reason why people are making noise, is because they have eaten this big chocolate cake. [applause]
Now we are saying to them, we are saying to them you’ll share with other people. Example, people are fighting with the SABC to say, there is loss about R411 million, the question is it is loss when we put money on black people. [applause] And we’re saying, if it is loss it is a good loss! [laughter][applause] Because we are empowering our own black people.
Because SABC, what you need to do to sustain SABC financially; you pay service providers on time; you pay your workers; you make sure that you don’t retrench your workers. And we’re the only broadcaster who’s not talking about retrenching people, other they are retrenching. You can go to print media, but people are not making noise. People are making noise because they know that we as SABC, we have taken a view to say when it comes to black people, they approach us we have money in the bank.
And actually, money when it is in the bank, is there to be used, and empower people. You know I make example, to say you are a father, you are just happy to have ten thousand Rands in the bank. Your kids they don’t have shoes, as long as you have ten thousand Rands you are so happy that you have money. Actually, you should make sure that your children have shoes, they can go to school. This is what we’re doing at the SABC, when we’re empower black people. [applause]
Peter Ndoro: Alright. Mr.Mngxitama we’re getting kind of, when we talk about particularly the state capture report that’s sitting in the court system at the moment. And here we’re talking about the size of Oakbay versus the size of the JSE. But in the end, perhaps it’s more about influence rather than size. If you can influence the appointment of cabinet ministers, if you can influence how those ministers write policy in your favour. Isn’t that capture?
Andile Mngxitama: I think let us follow the logic of Mzwanele here. The key ministry is this ministry, Treasury, Minister of Finance, and we know it’s not speculation that this current minister was appointed because the one appointed by the President, was not favoured by white capital. Now that is a clear [inaudible] state capture [inaudible] capital.
Now the narrative of state capture, is created by people who have actually captured the state, and because they feel like the grip of the state is [inaudible] they are using this narrative, or the state has been captured. When they do it, they call it rescuing the country. When their competition is trying to do it, and failing. I mean the Guptas apparently, they failed, they tried and failed, because everybody say they tried to offer me a job I refused. On the other hand, white capital has offered Pravin a job, and he’s in that job.
So, that is what real state capture has happened, but the media which they own, Johann Rupert owns almost everything here. I mean we know also Naspers is owned by them. City Press, when you read City Press you think it’s a black publication, it isn’t! It is owned by Afrikaner money, and it was there to make sure that white capital reproduce itself. Most of the publication the Sowetan, is not owned by us, the narrative that they run again is to make sure that white capital is normalised. And then whoever threatens the interest of white capital is project as criminal, as incompetent, and in fact is capturing the state.
So, we need to understand that we are dealing here with, a complete monopoly, and we are ourselves captured by this narrative of state capture. Because every time we see a problem, we say it is Zuma and it is the Guptas. Now we must be clear, the Guptas failed to capture the state. The guys who have been able to capture to the state, and we actually they must be prosecuted, because it’s not allowed by law. It is white capital who have employed Pravin Gordhan.
Now you see they’re organising a march on the 2nd of November, it is white capital! If Pravin is innocent, let him go to court, and the court will say this man is not a fraudster, and then he’ll be vindicated. But why must white capital stop the court process, including saying to the State President you must intervene.
They say there’s separation of powers, but the same white capital says President Zuma must interfere must interfere, and said Pravin must not be taken to court. How? Let Pravin if he is innocent go to court, and believe that there’s enough evidence to show that he’s a fraudster. And that is why as BLF, we have said we’ve taken him to court further, we have submitted papers yesterday in the High Court. We want Pravin to be declared; captured; compromised; and totally incapable of serving the interests of the country, because he is part of white capital.
Let us leave it to the court process. Don’t ask Zuma to get to interfere in that matter, because if Pravin is not a fraudster, and we believe he is. If we look at the evidence before us, which we have submitted to both Thuli Madonsela and the courts. Shows that Pravin is there to serve the interests of white capital.
Every black person in the country who is going to march on the 2nd of November to defend Pravin, they must know they’re not defending Pravin they’re defending white capital. [applause] They’re defending. In particular, we have not mentioned this, if you look at the JSE 97% of course or 98%, is white owned. Look at land, 22 years later 80% of the land is owned by only 35,000 white families in this country. So, we are all of us black people, we are landless in our own country, and this is the conversation we must have with the President of the country.
We must say to President Zuma “you know President Zuma, white people did never trusted you, because you don’t come from their universities. They never trusted you, because you never captured by their system of education. Now forget about white people. Look at us! Make sure that land is given to black people without being exempt. President Zuma declare free education, and then call!” [applause] There is enough money, there is enough money here, no commissions no trusting. President Zuma must just call the top 10 of the JSE, white companies, and tell them “from today, you will pay for free education”, and he must walk out of that room right. [applause]
So we are asking the President of the country to stop listening to the white noises and white voices, he must listen us. 22 years is a long time for black people to remain sitting talking about exclusion. It is our country, we’re a majority, there’s political power, it must be used. [applause]
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The rest of the discussion comprised of questions and statements from the audience. Then further statements and sometimes answers to questions, by the panel. Selected extracts are provided below, from part 2.
Moegsien Williams: Last month Oakbay Investments announced financial results or statements, for the financial year ending February. In the announcement, it was revealed that the revenue from state entities amounted 9% of overall revenue, 9%. At some point in our history we said that we were not going to do business with state entities, but with the advent of The New Age in 2010. Of course, it’s dependent on advertising revenue, and of course in 2013 we launch ANN7 TV channel also dependent on state advertising. This changed.
So only when the media companies were launched did we start to get increased revenue from the state. And of course, more recently we acquired some coal mines and we supplied, had been supplying coal to Eskom and some of its power stations. But overall, 9% of our revenue is derived from the state. Can hardly be described as state capture, where we are actually directly benefiting from having influence over the state. 9% of our turnover.
Peter Ndoro: Just clear things up again. The position of the Guptas is that, they did not try and influence the appointment of ministers, yes or no?
Moegsien Williams: Well I’m not aware of the background to that. Of course I’ve seen, I’ve seen the statement by the Deputy Minister of Finance [Mcebisi Jonas, was allegedly offered a R600 million bribe by Ajay Gupta, in relation to the nuclear deal[6]].
But you know, you’re basically saying that the President of our country is unable to make his own decisions. I would assume that, appointments to cabinet is first of all probably discussed with the ANC’s official, the national working committee, before the President arrives at a decision on who to appoint to his cabinet. Now if the Guptas can cut across all that and influence the appointment of a minister, the family must be extremely powerful.
Peter Ndoro: So, the challenge that the public has is, is Mcebisi Jonas telling the truth, or is he not? Is Vytjie Mentor telling the truth, or is she not? If they are lying, is the Gupta family going to sue them for libel?
Moegsien Williams: You know we’ve been. The problem with the court cases. You know this in the political kind of arena, and it’s difficult to go to court to try and counter what these people are saying. Of course, you know court cases will happen in three years from now. So, dealing with court issues, with political issues in court, is not always the best way to approach it. But you know, the family has been very strong in its denial of trying to influence the appointment of cabinet appointments, making cabinet appointments. It’s you know, and what these people are claiming, we will have to see what comes out of the Public Protectors’ report.
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Mzwanele Manyi: I would be saying to the march on November the 2nd. I think that march on the 2nd is a misguided march, and would call on people not to attend that march. That march is misguided, that march is actually pronouncing a vote of no confidence in the judiciary.
Peter Ndoro: So, people would say it’s because you are pro President Zuma that you’re saying all these things.
Mzwanele Manyi: President Zuma by the way, I do not apologise for being pro President Zuma. I do not apologise. President Zuma first of all, was elected by 75% of the branches of the ANC. I’m also an ANC member. So, first I don’t apologise. Secondly 62% of the electorate of this country voted for an ANC led, for a President Zuma led ANC, 62%. I’m part of that 62%. So indeed.
So, I think and I’m supportive of the current leadership of the ANC under President Zuma. And I think all those that are taking pot shots as it were, are actually factionalists. You can’t have people that are disgruntled, that have lost in Polokwane, that have not recovered. People that have lost in Mangaung, [laughter] that you know we’ve got wounded people here, that are still holding us to ransom. [laughter] President Zuma is democratically elected, he must lead.
And by the way even this thing that Andile [Mngxitama] was saying was correct. The problem people have with President Zuma is that President Zuma is helping to decolonise us, South Africa must decolonise [applause], the movement from the ICC is indeed decolonisation, the movement and the focus towards BRICS is decolonisation, so President Zuma is actually what South Africa needs. Just like Hlaudi [Motsoeneng], Hlaudi is trying to decolonise the airwaves, as it were [applause]. We’ve got colonised airwaves. We are sitting here and we’re being fed a particular narrative, and Hlaudi’s trying to say people South Africa is not all this bad, there are other good things that be shown on TV, and they want to kill Hlaudi. I think South Africa, ANC in particular will regret the day Hlaudi leaves SABC. They’ll regret it. [applause]
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Andile Mngxitama: I remember almost a year there was a big march to the JSE. People saying they want economic freedom, and they said we’re going to occupy ABSA. Now you know they went to London, black people you must be careful, when your leaders go to London. [applause][laughter] When your leaders go to London, you must know that when they come back, they are no longer your leaders. [applause][laughter] You know it is a year, 12 months later, not even an ATM of ABSA has been occupied. I’m not talking about the branch.
Because these leaders have gone to London, given instructions and now you can see our Metros, key strategic Metros have been given to white people to run. The same idea that Hlaudi [Motsoeneng] was talking about, the slave mentality, the idea that you must give white people power after they’ve oppressed us for more than 350 years. It’s a shocking thing.
Part 3 included the summary statements. Extracts are provided below.
Peter Ndoro: “Can you please ask the BLF guy if he’s being funded by the Guptas?” Respond to him and your final thoughts please on this issue.
Andile Mngxitama: No, we’re not being funded by the Guptas. A lot of people in social media talks about 100 million, and I saw 370 million. If they know where that money is, please they must talk to me, because I, we want it. Right now, we just ask South Africans to give a little bit of money, and we are very grateful they do so, and we’ll continue to ask them to support our movement. Because at this point I can say with confidence, we are the only black revolutionary movement, which is clear about the fact this country belongs to us. It must be returned to us as black people, as a black majority, and we must benefit from the wealth which is in this country. Because right now that’s not happening.
I’m glad there is consensus on the panel, about the fundamental question. The fundamental question is, our country is still under white rule, and our Constitution and this is the big debate we must have, still gives legitimacy to colonialise and Apartheid. Our own Constitution. The 1994 Constitution, gives power to white people. That is why section 25 of that Constitution says “if you want land as black people, you must go buy it”. We must stop that, no one can buy back our land because it was stolen from us.
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Peter Ndoro: Mr.Manyi your final thoughts, and just bearing in mind some of the comment. People are convinced the Guptas are trying to capture the Treasury.
Mzwanele Manyi: Ja, look. I think Treasury is captured it’s not funny. Treasury’s so captured for instance, why did it take ten years for Treasury to even pronounce that PPPFA must be repealed, a law that continues to disempower black people…
Peter Ndoro: We’ve run out of time.
References
1] JIC Mining 57.6% owned by Oakbay
2] Moegsien Williams talking, TNA/SABC/JIC State Capture discussion, 26th October 2016
3] SABC Digital News, youtube channel, 5th April 2016, Part 1
4] Nazeem Howa resigns as Oakbay Investments CEO, 17th October 2016
5] CIDB legislative mandate
6] Sunday Times allegation that Ajay Gupta attempted to bribe Mcebisi Jonas, 23rd October 2016
Transcribed from:
SABC Digital News, youtube channel, “State Capture discussion” 26th October, Part 1
SABC Digital News, youtube channel, “State Capture discussion” 26th October, Part 2
SABC Digital News, youtube channel, “State Capture discussion” 26th October, Part 3
