Unrevised transcript of the speech by ANC MP, Professor Ben Turok, in debate on the State of the Nation Address, Parliament, February 15 2011:

PROF B TUROK: Mr Speaker, Mr President, Mr Deputy President, I listened very carefully to Minister Chabane when he was talking about performance agreements within government. I have a suggestion. Let us have a performance agreement on the DA. Let us see whether or not they too can work faster, better, smarter. [Interjections.] I have a problem, because I am supposed to act as a sweeper in this debate, and the performance of the DA leaves me... 

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

PROF B TUROK: ...speechless and wordless, because I have no performance to talk about. [Laughter.] With the exception of the hon Mike Ollis; I enjoyed his speech. I think he should be promoted to Leader of the DA, and then we will have a performance agreement on him.

I have very little to say about the opposition speakers as a whole. [Applause.] However, I do want to say to Comrade Lekota: "I really am fond of you. I appreciate you and I think you should come back this side. Really, because the problems in Cope are so enormous and so embarrassing, and a man of your status and history, really come back here." [Applause.] [Laughter.] As for the hon Kilian who doesn't want to take our advice, that's too bad, because you need it very badly.

What I want to talk about are the many tributes that have been given to Nelson Mandela today. We appreciate them very much. We appreciate them, because Madiba is the icon, not only of the world, but particularly of this House, and in particular of the ANC.

The ANC is particularly concerned with the impact that Mandela had on South Africa and the world. It's not just a matter of being an icon; it's a matter of what impact that icon has on society. It seems to me that we should be very clear about the basis of that impact on South Africa and on society.

I would suggest that the reason Madiba has made this huge impact is because he was a freedom fighter, first and foremost. [Applause.] He was a fighter of the ANC, a fighter for freedom. The international statesman and so on came after the victory of the ANC. Before that he was a freedom fighter, and he was an inspiration to all of us on this side of the House, I don't know about this side of the House. [Laughter.]

I was privileged to be in the treason trial with Madiba. I was privileged to be working with him in uMkhonto weSizwe, so I understand the very fibre of the man, where he came from and what he was fighting for. He was above all a freedom fighter as part of the masses. When we talk about him as a statesman and an icon, let us not forget that there was a foundation for the work of this man and there continues to be a foundation of this man, and that is the fact that he was a freedom fighter.

When I was watching TV in the last few weeks and saw the masses in Egypt, I thought if Madiba was a young man and he was in Cairo, would he not be part of those masses? In fact, I, myself, would have loved to be part of those masses in Cairo; part of the mass struggle. That is what Madiba was - a freedom fighter, part of the masses, not only in South Africa, but internationally. If he had not been locked up in Robben Island, Madiba would have been a freedom fighter representing the ambitions of people everywhere. I think that we should pay tribute to the people of Egypt who have stood up against dictatorship and authoritarianism. [Applause.] I am quite sure that Madiba would want us to pay tribute to those people in the same way.

Well, let me ask the hon Leader of the DA, if you were in the position...

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order!

PROF B TUROK: ... kindly convey my greetings to him, and ask him if he was a young man in Cairo today, would he be part of those demonstrations. [Interjections.] I wonder, you see, I don't think so. That makes the difference between us and you. [Applause.] It makes the difference. The hon Trollip complained that government was too slow to recognise the Egyptian revolution. But you see this business of revolution, of struggle is deep in our souls. So, we identify with the people who struggle in the way that the people of Egypt did. Madiba would have done it, I am not at all sure that the gentlemen and ladies who are making a noise here are in the same mould, in fact, I am sure that they are not.

What did Mandela stand for and what does he stand for? I think that we can sum up what he stands for, and I use the present tense, in a simple phrase: Mandela stands for and always stood for the transformation of South Africa into an inclusive society; transformation into an inclusive society. I would hope that as we go to our centenary celebrations...

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

PROF B TUROK: ...that we allow Madiba to, once again, say to us, in his own way, that what South Africa needs is transformation for an inclusive society. I hope very much that he will be able to join us in the centenary celebration for the transformation of an inclusive society. [Applause.]

What do I mean by that? I think that we all understand what an inclusive society means. It's in the Constitution. It means a democratic participatory society, based on the principles of nonracial and nonsexism. That's what it means. I think that we all understand - both sides of the House and all parties in the country - that we stand for an inclusive society. The problem lies in the word transformation. The ANC and Mandela have always had a view that transformation is central to the objectives of the ANC and the needs of the country. Transformation - it's in the Freedom Charter, it's enshrined there. It is in what Mandela said during the treason trial; what he said in his role as leader of uMkhonto weSizwe and so on.

Let me say that the way Mandela understands transformation and the way we understand transformation show that Mandela was never a soft-pedalling liberal. He was never a soft-pedalling liberal. When you talk about transformation, you talk about it as soft-pedalling liberals. When we talk about transformation, it's a revolutionary notion of the transformation of South Africa from what it was to what it should be.

A week ago, a think tank which I shall not name, which is very close to business and to the DA, produced a document on the question of transformation.

Mr M J ELLIS:  Name it!

PROF B TUROK: No, why should I name it? Why should I give you or them publicity? No, no, I won't do that. That's a cheap shot. Undertakers should know their place, please! [Laughter.] [Applause.]

What the article argued is that the central issue in South Africa is: "Do we want a society that promotes equality of opportunity or equality of outcomes?"  These are rather critical questions. When you talk about equality of opportunity, and when Hellen Zille was here, she always talked about merit, and the hon Trollip also talked about tr ... [Interjections.]. I was going to say trash, but no. [Laughter.] He has to talk about merits. The hon Trollip was talking trash and merit. So, what did they say and what does the DA and this think tank stand for? They stand for equality of opportunity.

Now, imagine that you have a very brilliant young black scholar or learner in a poor rural school - brilliant she is. Then you have a medium-talented white person from a privileged Model C class school in Cape Town. The two apply for a job. Who is going to get that job? If you apply the question of merit, brilliant as she is, the merit will come with the person who has had a particular background, particular opportunities, whereas the black child, brilliant as she is will not make it. And so ... [Interjections.] And so sit down. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Hon Ben Turok!

PROF B TUROK: Yes.

The SPEAKER: Please take your seat

Ms M SMUTS: Sir, will the hon Turok take a question on the DA's affirmative action policy ... [Interjections.]

PROF B TUROK: Yes, let's have it. Let's have it out. [Interjections.]

Ms M SMUTS: ... which is everything you are ... [Interjections.]

PROF B TUROK: Tell me what you mean. I'll tell you what. You asked me a question and I ... [Interjections.]

Ms M SMUTS: Why don't you tell us what will ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! Look, we don't want a dialogue here.

PROF B TUROK: Oh, I see. Okay. [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: Continue, hon member.

PROF B TUROK: Now, the truth is that given the history of South African and given the awful background that children in the rural schools, particularly had and have - it continues. If you talk about merit and equality of opportunity, there is an unequal race between two applicants. So, when the DA continues to harp on, equality of opportunity and merit...

The SPEAKER: Hon members, order!

PROF B TUROK: ... what you are doing is that perpetuating disadvantage in this country. [Applause.] We will have historically disadvantaged people forever if we take the line of equality of opportunity without qualification. Of course we want merit. Who is going to argue with that? But we must have merit based on equality of training ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Turok, kindly take your seat, there is a point of order.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, on a point of order: I just want to know whether the hon member is having as debate with himself, because he obviously hasn't read our policy. So, he is living in an antidelusion world. He needs to actually read our policy.

The SPEAKER: Take your seat. That is not a point of order. Order, hon members!

PROF B TUROK: I think Mike Ellis should come back as Chief Whip. This is very poor. [Laughter.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Speaker, on a point of order: Mr Ellis has never been a Chief Whip. [Laughter.]

PROF B TUROK: Well, maybe he should have been. [Laughter.]

What I'm saying is that on the one hand the ANC is committed to equality of outcomes.

We want a South Africa in which all people are equal. We say that this business of harping on merit and equality of opportunity will never create an equality of outcomes. We need affirmative action and all kinds of measures to ensure that we overcome the history and create a society of equals. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker!

The SPEAKER: On what point of order are you rising?

Mr M J ELLIS: I want to ask if the hon Turok would take a question.

PROF B TUROK: Not from you, sit down. [Laughter.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Why not, Ben?

The SPEAKER: He won't take a question.

PROF B TUROK: You see, we listen very carefully ...

Mr M J ELLIS: Maybe I could ask him again. Just one more ...

The SPEAKER: Please take your seat, hon member. Order, hon members!

PROF B TUROK: Now, the hon Trollip made a strong appeal that the DA will lead us on a path to prosperity. Whose prosperity on the basis of equality of opportunity? [Interjections.] Who will have the opportunity, and who will have the prosperity? [Interjections.] The same people you represent and those you come from will have the advantages and the prosperity, while the rest of South Africa sufferers. [Applause.]

Let me go further and say this. You and the people you represent should not only talk about equality of opportunity, but you actually have an obligation to promote the transformation of South Africa. The reason for that obligation is the legacy that you perpetuated and stand for now. [Applause.]

Now, what did Mandela stand for, and what did he do? You see, what you don't understand - and we seem to lose you on these issues - is that Mandela led a liberation movement, not a political party. [Interjections.] Why do we say that? The reason is that South Africa requires transformation and it won't come through normal political party banter; it comes through the liberation progress and the struggle of people. This is what the ANC stands for.

Let me explain something to you. [Interjections.] Just listen, just listen. [Interjections.] I'm giving you a lecture. [Laughter.] You see, when we talk about liberation and transformation, we lose the DA.

Mr M J ELLIS: Speaker, on a point of order: The hon Turok has just indicated that he is giving us a lecture. This is not a lecture room, but a Chamber for debating. I believe that he is out of order in giving us a lecture.

The SPEAKER: Continue, hon member.

PROF B TUROK: You see, hon Ellis, in a normal Parliament, people debate. However, when we have people like you, we have to lecture. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members, order!

PROF B TUROK: Let me make it absolutely clear that the liberation movement that Mandela led and still leads - he is still our leader - stands for a nonracial and a nonsexist future. [Interjections.] It's in the Constitution and the aims and objectives of the ANC.

Now, it's quite extraordinary that a liberation movement for the liberation of black people - and Africans in particular - should stand for a nonracial future - it's a bit odd. Why should these black people stand for a nonracial future? One would expect black to start a liberation movement for themselves to establish what used to be called a black republic. But not this ANC, and not Mandela. So, why is it that the ANC says they stand for the liberation of black people but they also stand for a nonracial future? What is this?

It seems to me that the DA and people like you don't understand this. [Laughter.] What we are saying to you - I'm going to try and explain it to you in this debate. [Interjections.] You see, there is absolutely no prospect of a nonracial South Africa without the liberation of black people. It can't happen because, as things are structured now and before, there is no prospect that you can have a nonracial society without the liberation of black people.

You people, where you are in power, do not favour the creation of a nonracial society. You talk about it, but you keep promoting merit and you keep talking about equality of opportunity. This means that the historically disadvantaged people of this province will never make it into equality. [Applause.]

The hon Trollip said: "Where the DA governs, it governs well." Let me tell you that I live in Cape Town; I grew up in Cape Town. We have a DA city and DA province, and it does not govern well. [Interjections.] If you don't believe me, come with me ...

PROF B TUROK: ... to Military Road, Lavender Hill and to all those ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! 

PROF B TUROK: Come with me and I will show you how the DA governs Cape Town. It's a disgrace! [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Come to Johannesburg and let me take you around!

PROF B TUROK: We can't depend on a DA city council or a DA provincial government or Helen Zille because they do not govern well. [Interjections.] What they do is govern well in Bishopscourt. [Interjections.] Yes, they govern very well in Constantia. But come to Military Road, Seawinds, Lavender Hill, Khayelitsha and Gugulethu; do they govern well?

Hon MEMBERS: No!

PROF B TUROK: The masses have spoken. [Applause.] You see, ...

Mr M MNQASELA: Hon Speaker, on a point of order.

The SPEAKER: What point of order are you rising on, hon member?

Mr M MNQASELA: May I ask hon Turok whether he has ever been to Gugulethu and Khayelitsha. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: That's not a point of order. Hon members, please take your seats.

PROF B TUROK: It's a question which I'm very happy to answer. I was in Gugulethu last week and I can tell you exactly where I was. So that point of order is out of order. [Laughter.]

Mr Speaker, the reason that the DA does not understand the relationship of the liberation and the aspirations of Mandela.

The SPEAKER: There is a point of order, please take your seat, hon Turok.

The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: Speaker, the point of order is directed to the hon member who just stood up here. I understand the hon member is on bail for rape, and he is sitting here with us. Is that transformation? Why do we have a Member of Parliament who is on bail for rape sitting with us here? [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon member, take your seat, that's not a point of order. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Mr Speaker, on a point of order: She actually reflects on a member of the House. Now, I remember one of your previous rulings where you asked a member to withdraw derogatory remarks against a person in the House, and I ask you to follow your ruling through.

The SPEAKER: I will study the Hansard and come back with a ruling. [Interjections.] Order, hon members, order, order!

PROF B TUROK: Allow me to sum up. It's quite late, allow me to sum up. South Africa is at a turning point where the whole of society has to examine itself, its mission and its vision. All the parties in the House, including the ANC, must examine their policies and role in our society on the basis of Mandela's aspirations for a society which is transformation - an inclusive society. How do we handle this? It seems to me that the ANC and the government are struggling extremely hard against a legacy which I believe was much worse than we understood it to be.

When we were in the struggle and in exile, we often used to talk about the violence of the apartheid regime, the oppressive character of the regime, colour discrimination, all those sorts of things. In international fora and at the United Nations our spokespersons used to talk about those things: prisons, the oppression, and so on. We talked very little about what apartheid did to the black people of South Africa. We didn't talk about what they really did to the people, especially those in the rural areas, the schools and conditions in which children grew up. We did not talk about that.

As the education Ministers grappled with that legacy - and it's a huge legacy - the difficulties of overcoming teachers who don't teach because they were never taught to teach. Many of them had no university education but second-rate certificates. [Interjections.] As we try to overcome this self-perpetuating system of underdevelopment, of a dual economy, a dual society; it's an enormous uphill battle to overcome that.

What this government must do is not talk primarily about equality of opportunities, but how we overcome the legacy and disadvantage. That disadvantage is still here. [Interjections.] You see it everywhere. The disadvantage of the legacy is massive. [Interjections.] That is why the key concept that I want to put forward here as representing the views of Mandela ... [Laughter.] ... is the transformation for an inclusive society. [Laughter.] The hon Ellis is on his way out, please leave! [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: Order, order.

PROF B TUROK: Now, now, now. 

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Now, yes, now.

PROF B TUROK: I want to conclude by saying this. I'm offering free of charge a series of seminars to the DA on transformation in South Africa. It's free of charge and you are all invited. Just come and take notes. Thank you very much. [Applause.] 

Source: Unrevised transcript, Hansard.

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