MARTHA KEARNEY: There've been angry scenes at the African Union summit in Egypt with Robert Mugabe's spokesman lashing out at one of his critics, the Kenyan Prime Minister. His hands dripped with blood, he said, raw African blood.
The outburst was provoked by suggestions that the solution to Zimbabwe's crisis lies in a Kenyan model, a Government of national unity. He also lambasted the West at an impromptu press conference.
Shaun Ley is in Sharm el-Sheikh and was right at the centre of the outburst.
SHAUN LEY: Martha this is the day Zimbabwe has attempted to strike back, both in public and behind the scenes. About ninety minutes ago I'm told that Robert Mugabe slipped in to a room away from the conference hall with South Africa's Thabo Mbeki, the key negotiator so far.
That's added fresh impetus to talk of progress towards some sort of negotiations for a unity Government. And after actively avoiding the cameras yesterday, today Mr Mugabe's spokesman wanted to talk, although thanks to the extraordinary level of security here, it had to be by the gents' toilet.
George Charamba dismissed any suggestion that the West could help resolve his country's crisis.
GEORGE CHARAMBA (Spokesman for Robert Mugabe): They can go and hang, they can go and hang a thousand times. They have no basis, they have no claim on Zimbabwean politics at all. And that's exactly the issue.
LEY: And what about their argument that Mr Mugabe has no claim on office because of the way the election was conducted?
CHARAMBA: Which is a judgement of the West isn't it? And if you look at ...
LEY: You don't believe anybody in Zimbabwe believes that?
CHARAMBA: Oh remember the MDC's essence lies in some kind of joint initiative of all the political parties in Britain to set up an opposition as a response to the land reform programme in Zimbabwe. So essentially when, when, when they express the (indistinct) about the electoral system they are not doing no more than express the mind of their own master.
LEY: And what about suggestions that there could be negotiations between Mr Tsvangirai and Mr Mugabe for the foundation of a Government of national unity?
CHARAMBA: Well except this is no longer the talk. The whole basis of negotiation by President Mbeki and all thanks go to him, have been founded on the need for dialogue. Don't also forget that that dialogue has in fact yielded real concrete constitutional and legal changes to our entire electoral regime. The fact that Morgan Tsvangirai five days before the poll decides to pull out does not take away from the fact that he actually participated.
LEY: But you've heard that organisations like the Pan African Parliament who have observers here have argued quite clearly that this election was not properly conducted because there was too much violence.
CHARAMBA: Except it did not take in to account the fact that they did not and I repeat they did not say that violence related to one side of the political equation. It was an indictment on all political players and we must all be accountable for that.
LEY: What is the way out of this crisis?
CHARAMBA: The way out is a way to find defined by the Zimbabwean people, free from outside interference and that's exactly what will resolve the matter. For as long as we've got some external interest that are seeking to express themselves within our own politics then naturally we have that kind of resistance. Because for us it recalls a certain experience, ugly experience of going through before, that of colonialism.
LEY: The British Government Minister Lord Malloch is here, would President Mugabe be prepared to meet with him?
CHARAMBA: Malloch Brown do, do you quite appreciate the history of Malloch Brown? Malloch Brown by the way used at one point to be the citizen of a colonial republic called Rhodesia. So when Malloch Brown (indistinct) ...
LEY: He can't help where he was born can he?
CHARAMBA: ... can I hang on, when he pronounce himself on Zimbabwe he is simply recalling an historical period where the white man reigned supreme in Zimbabwe. And that era is gone.
LEY: Prime Minister Raila Odinga of Kenya ...
CHARAMBA: Yes.
LEY: ... has said that the African Union summit should not recognise the legitimacy of Mr Zimbabwe as President.
CHARAMBA: I take it you followed Kenyan politics didn't you. I take it you saw the blood that was drawn in that very bloody election and I hope you realise that Prime Minister Raila Odinga's hands drip with blood, raw African blood. That blood is not going to be cleansed by any amount of abuse of Zimbabwe, not at all.
LEY: Would you accept a special envoy from the African Union in addition to the role that Thabo Mbeki is playing?
CHARAMBA: President Thabo Mbeki is working for a sub region which is part of the AU. So why are we drawing these nice distinctions? Why are we trying to partition Africa again?
LEY: George Charamba, Robert Mugabe's spokesman. And looking around this summit yards of gold braid and the military peaked caps remind you that plenty of leaders here might sympathise.
So Lord Malloch Brown, Britain's Africa Minister, is cautious about the outcome. But first I asked him about George Charamba's personal criticism of him.
LORD MALLOCH BROWN: They know perfectly well I am not a Zimbabwean. I was not born in Zimbabwe. I was born of a South African father in London and grew up a Brit. But I have known this country for a very long time and I think that's part of what really gets under their skin.
LEY: People see a difference between what you're saying here at a relatively emollient message and the rhetoric Gordon Brown was using even at the beginning at the week which seemed to be pointing much more firmly towards a desire to see Robert Mugabe out of office and a new regime in power in Harare.
MALLOCH BROWN: Well let, let me be clear, you know, you know I, I don't think there is any difference. When we talk about negotiations to achieve a Government which reflects the will of the Zimbabwean people and which allows the, you know, the prospect of major economic reform to stop hyperinflation running I might add now at four million per cent a year, we do not believe that Robert Mugabe can be part of such a Government. We certainly think Zanu PF could be. But it needs a strong Government reflective of the will of the people. I've been involved in efforts to end hyperinflations before. They're politically and economically difficult; they need Governments with real authority.
So, and we don't believe that Mugabe after what's happened in the recent months could provide that authority. So ...
LEY: Even as a ceremonial President?
MALLOCH BROWN: Even as a ceremonial President, I mean I, we, obviously we don't want to be prescriptive and, you know, that's one reason perhaps you think I've been more mild in language because this we're guests at Africa's summit and it's for them to decide what course of action they want to adopt. But I've been very clear in every contact I've had that the very major economic support for the country's reconstruction that we and others are willing to offer depends on a Government being formed which does reflect the will of the people.
So yes, to Zanu PF inclusion, but in our view no to a Government led by Robert Mugabe.
LEY: We're standing here just outside the conference hall, it's been a herculean effort to actually get this far. You at least can get a little further as a delegate here. Can you give us a flavour of how the process of negotiation works in a meeting of this kind?
MALLOCH BROWN: Well it, to put it generously it's fragmented because there has actually been no formal discussion of Zimbabwe in the main meeting of the Heads of Government. It's all taken place to date in the corridors and in side meetings of SADC, the Southern African grouping of countries. For example ...
LEY: Those are the countries that really matter in this context.
MALLOCH BROWN: Yes, matter most. They're the front line if you like, although not necessarily those with the monopoly of views because some of those further away from the Southern African sub region seem to hold even stronger views about the need for change.
So there's a lot of meetings in corridors, small sub meetings. But only in the next hours is it likely to come up formally in a private meeting of the Heads of Government and, you know, at that point, exactly what happens I think is hard to script or, or guess because, you know, there's an expectation that President Mugabe will try to kind of stare down his critics and dare them to, to speak up and challenge them on their own democratic credentials et cetera.
But I think there is a strong group of leaders here who are very forthright, very determined, came to power the toughest routes possible at the heads of long struggles in their own countries, who've lost patience with this nonsense. And if challenged will indeed say that they believe that the Mugabe regime is dragging down Africa with it.
On the other hand however there will also be a desire amongst many of them to keep alive the role of the AU as a mediator and in Africa if you're a mediator it means you have to be very level handed in what you say and that will mean that they may pull their punches in some of their public commentary about what's happened for fear that it would undermine any mediation effort they may embark on before it began.
LEY: And a draft communiqué I've seen re-enforces Lord Malloch Brown's scepticism that there'll be harsh words delivered publicly. It condemns the violence, calls for both sides to work together for a permanent peaceful solution, but it's silent on whether Robert Mugabe could be or should be part of that. Martha.
KEARNEY: Shaun Ley in Sharm el-Sheikh.
This transcript was issued by the British Foreign & Commonwealth Office July 1 2008
