PRESENTER: And returning now to one of our top stories Zimbabwe's president at the centre of attention really at the African Union summit that is going on in Egypt right now. He is also the subject of a rising chorus of international indignation against his re-election on the weekend, basically a one man ballot.Some of the voices calling for Robert Mugabe to step down is Britain's Foreign Office Minister responsible for Africa Lord Mark Malloch Brown, he joins us now from the AU meeting that is going on in Sharm el Sheikh, Egypt. Thank you so much for being with us, you know I'm curious there's so much indignation over the fact that Robert Mugabe is there, what are your thoughts about that? Should the man be there at all?

LORD MALLOCH BROWN: Well I, I think he's a pretty embarrassing guest and I think a lot of Presidents wish he'd stayed away because they've tried very hard to raise the standards of democratic membership of the AU and, obviously, this is a real poke in the eye to that. But, of course, what it does do is force them to focus on what they can do to support a transition to a democratic outcome in Zimbabwe. So he's, he's made Zimbabwe the dominant issue of the meeting.

PRESENTER: So what do you want to see happen at this conference, what do you want to hear from African leaders?

MALLOCH BROWN: Well certainly what we hope is that if they push for a solution as I think they may and it may take the form of a negotiated Government involving both Morgan Tsvangirai, the winner of the first round of the elections, and the Zanu PF party of Mugabe, assuming they push for that kind of solution for us it's critical that that solution be based on some very clear principles. First that Morgan Tsvangirai is the popular winner in Zimbabwe, he won the only legitimate round of this election. And secondly since he did that the intimidation and violence unleashed by Robert Mugabe against his own people should not condoned in any deal that's now arrived at.

So if there is to be a negotiated solution we don't want a lot of diplomatic fudge we want something clear and respecting the rights of the Zimbabwean people.

PRESENTER: There's a lot of talk, I mean, from people like the Archbishop Desmond Tutu, just one example, of, of a call for military action really. Should that be on the table as well do you think?

MALLOCH BROWN: Well it's certainly not on the table here at this, this summit but I think what everybody realises is, is that we have to go the whole way on this. We can't accept business as usual though it's undoubtedly the AU will try and do something in the negotiating area here. If that doesn't work you'll see the United States, the United Kingdom but also African members of the Security Council I think coming together to put in place sanctions against the regime, particularly Mugabe and the people who lead it and you will see the pressure ratcheting up. And ultimately it will have to do whatever it takes to bring him down. But there's a great resistance to a military option, people feel this should be solved by diplomatic, economic and political means if at all possible.

PRESENTER: But even when you talk about sanctions and the diplomatic route, I mean, doesn't everybody sort of have the same problem, I mean, how far, for example is Britain prepared to go? One needs to be careful right, you've got thousand of citizens living in Zimbabwe, there are companies doing business there, what to do for example about Robert Mugabe who shows no signs of wanting to leave. Is he offered safe passage, what do to? Isn't everybody in the same delicate, almost position here?

MALLOCH BROWN: Well delicate but we mustn't let it become impossible, we mustn't let short term interests get in the way of finding a solution that gives the people of Zimbabwe back their freedom and human rights. And so I think the first target is Mugabe and the people around him, not just their own immediate financial interests but the companies they control. And until now the US and Europe including the UK have, have gone after these individuals and the bank accounts they hold in our countries, we've got to move to global sanctions against them and their corporations and stop British or American or other companies doing any business with them in Zimbabwe or anywhere in the world.

Secondly I think you'll see human rights action against them which will quickly make it impossible for them to travel anywhere for fear of arrest from human rights warrants put up by different judges. So you're going to see this group come under huge pressure and be quickly calculating is it worth it staying with Mugabe if this is what the grief it's going to bring us in our own families and those of our families when they want to go abroad to study to shop or whatever.

And then beyond that we'll have to broaden sanctions to hit the Government itself, it, its, its sources of revenue, its power staple companies, state owned companies and gradually the net's going to widen and will be, I hope, combined as was not the case in the past by single minded political pressure. But, as I say, what's going on at the AU today is an effort to make that unnecessary by pre-empting it with a diplomatic solution. I hope they succeed but if they don't we've got to be ready to come in full throttle with, with heavy sanctions.

PRESENTER: You've made no secret that, that you know you want him out, you think he ought to be out. Realistically though, you know, when could you imagine that ever happening?

MALLOCH BROWN: Well I think the people at this conference would prefer a more gracious exit, you know many of them talk about some short term transition arrangement where he remains a figure head pre, president for a brief period of time. I think we'll have to see what they come up with. For me though and for the British Government and I think the American Government as well as many others around the world the fact is the behaviour of this man and his regime in the last weeks is not something we can condone by standing idly by and allowing him to stay in power as though it was business as usual. We want change. If the Africans decide they want to do that against a timetable which is not immediate but which achieves the change we want well then that's really their business to try. And if it meets the principles we, we, I'm sure will try to live with it.

PRESENTER: All right Lord Mark Malloch Brown we'll leave it there, thank you so much, appreciate your time.

MALLOCH BROWN: Thank you.

Transcript issued by British Foreign & Commonwealth Office July 1 2008