QUESTION 2

Transcript of Deputy President Cyril Ramaphosa's answer to a question from EFF leader Julius Malema MP, National Assembly, Wednesday September 17 2014

Question 3:

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Speaker, hon Julius Malema asked:

How does he reconcile his testimony before the Farlam Commission of Inquiry including his characterisation of the unfolding events as a mineworkers' strike having gone beyond a labour dispute and the resultant death of 34 striking mineworkers on 16 August 2012 at Marikana, with any of the government's interventions up to now to alleviate the suffering of the victims of the Marikana tragedy?

Hon Malema, there is no correlation between my testimony there before the commission and what the government's interventions are. But, I'm able to say that government has made a number of interventions. I can count about four interventions of a major proportion. The first one was to assist the families of all 44 people who died; to establish the facts about what happened at Marikana; and address the social and other hardships that they suffered including economic hardships. These are interventions that have been made. Following the tragedy, President Zuma established a commission of inquiry which is being lead by Judge Farlam to investigate all these matters. In addition to this, the President also set up an Inter-Ministerial Committee which is chaired by Minister Jeff Radebe.

Under the leadership of the former Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe, a framework agreement for a sustainable mining industry was entered into by labour, business and government and the agreement seeks to address a wide range of issues. I would like to touch on some of them. They have to deal with how to accelerate the process of transformation and beneficiation of the metals that are dug out of our soil; eliminating negative and social economic legacies and also empowering mine workers; accelerating efforts to upgrade human settlements in mining towns by all spheres of government; and accelerating implementation processes to transform the migrant labour system.

This process that I have just outlined, which was being led by the former Deputy President Kgalema Motlanthe, is now being led by our President. He is going to steer this into what I would see in the end as a major solution.

As stated above, an Inter-Ministerial Committee on the revitalisation of distressed mining communities was established and as I said this is led by Minister Jeff Radebe. The implementation of the presidential package under the guidance of this Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, is underway and it is going to focus on a number of areas such as building, housing and other services to revitalise mining towns as part of the October 2012 agreement between business, government and labour.

The focus will be on mining areas in Matlosana, eMalahleni, Sekhukhune, Lephalale, West Rand and Majabeng. In the Bojanala Platinum Complex, the North West provincial government has set aside R462 million for housing projects in the mining area of Marikana. Over the next three years, the North West will provide focused technical support on human settlements and the mix of housing opportunities in the mining areas of Bojanala District Municipality.

The Rustenburg Municipality provides basic services to eight prioritised informal settlements in Madibeng municipality to three informal settlements. During the period from June to August 2014, the Department of Social Development and the SA Social Security Agency provided support to informal settlements in the Rustenburg and Madibeng Local Municipalities. To further promote improved living conditions for mineworkers, the government is monitoring the compliance of mining companies with the Mining Charter targets relating to the living conditions of mineworkers as well as their working conditions.

Government has urged companies to meet the 2014 deadline of these targets. I have reason to believe that various interventions including the IMC, which involves a number of government departments, have already started a tremendous work to try and address the challenges that these distressed mining areas are facing. This is the government in action. This is the government at work addressing the challenges that our people are facing. I believe that the government will succeed to address those challenges. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr J S MALEMA: Hon Speaker, the question here does not capture very well the spirit within which I submitted my question. I never wrote the tragedy. I wrote massacre and therefore these people who are changing our questions there, must be very careful.

I just want to check, Minister Shabangu said that you misrepresented her under oath when you said that she characterised the strike the same way you did. It looks like one of you lied under oath. The last thing is that, why is the Deputy President not accepting that you are responsible for the death of 34 mineworkers who died; you killed them because you were driven by profit and the interest to defend your shares as the economy security guard in the economy of South Africa; and stop this thing that we must all take responsibility.

We cannot take responsibility for the things we do not know. You are the one who wrote the emails and instigated the killing of 34 people. I think you are responsible and sitting there, your hands have got blood of innocent people who died in Marikana. I think it is important for you to accept the responsibility.

THE SPEAKER: Hon Malema, withdraw the remark that the Deputy President's hands are full of blood!

Mr J S MALEMA: The Deputy President's hands have got blood, a lot of blood of 34 innocent mineworkers.

The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, please withdraw that!

Mr J S MALEMA: I am not going to do that. The Deputy President killed the people in Marikana and he must take ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, if you are not going to withdraw that you have to therefore leave the House.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Order, hon Speaker!

The SPEAKER: You cannot both of you be on your feet. Unless hon Malema withdraws that statement, he has to leave the House.

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Which Rule is that, hon Speaker?

The SPEAKER: Hon Malema, leave the House!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: Before we deal with that, Speaker, can we be guided on the Rules of Parliament in terms of which Rule is preventing us to say that Cyril is a murderer? He's a murderer of workers in Marikana. It is a fact. He said there must be committed action in Marikana and he killed the workers. What prevents us from saying that he is a murderer?

The SPEAKER: Hon Malema and hon Shivambu you have to withdraw that!

Mr N F SHIVAMBU: I am not going to withdraw.

The SPEAKER: If you are not going to withdraw then you have to leave the House. Hon Malema and hon Shivambu please leave the House on the basis that you are not going to withdraw those remarks which are unparliamentary. You have to leave the House!

Mr D D VAN ROOYEN: Hon Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The member, hon Shivambu, when leaving the House he made a middle finger sign to our respectable Deputy President. Could you please make a ruling on that?

The SPEAKER: The hon member is no longer in the House, but obviously it is totally unacceptable and unparliamentary. We will have to deal with it in a different way because he is not in the House.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With respect, the question was put; the Deputy President responded; and there are three follow-ups that we are entitled to. We have speakers who would like to put follow-up questions and hold the executives to account.

The SPEAKER: Thank you, hon Steenhuisen. Hon Deputy President, there was a question and you have responded. The next supplementary question is that of hon Holomisa.

Dr B H HOLOMISA: Hon Deputy President, would you agree that it goes with logic that those deployed in the mining sector to advance black economic empowerment, BEE, objectives must commit to fundamental change of the socioeconomic circumstances of both workers and immediate communities for the better? Would you be able to confirm that this has indeed been the experience that you and the rest of the South Africans can claim or that it has benefitted only those deployed individuals so far? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: In relation to this question, hon Holomisa, I think as a nation we should be guided by what we do largely at the national level. One of the wonderful things that were done by the ANC-led government was to come up with a piece of legislation called the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, which came up with the Mining Charter.

The Mining Charter should really be the guide that should show us the way in terms of what should happen with regard to transformation in the mining industry. If you were to extrapolate it, you could use it for various other industries as well. It is a path making like piece of legislation. It deals with how workers should be accommodated, their living conditions, how the equity should be dealt with, their working conditions, their safety and a whole number of other things including how communities that live around mining operations should also benefit from mining.

It is true to say that the Mining Charter, as it has been addressed here in this very Parliament, has not really been fully implemented. Indeed, a number of companies have not lived up to the provisions of the Ming Charter. Those who have participated in BEE transactions have in a number of ways either sort to try and push the agenda of transformation. In large measure, we often find that because they are minority players in the corporations where they are participating in, it does take a long time to effect a change that we would all like to see.

The good thing is that the Mining Charter is there and the government has decided that it is going to monitor compliance of the implementation of the Mining Charter. I take a lot of courage from that that we have a government that is committed to foster transformation in this industry and in many other industries. We need to be focusing more and more on pushing companies to adhere to the provisions of the Mining Charter. I think in this new administration we will be able to make progress. With the new Minister that we have got in the mining industry, we will be able to make greater progress as led by our President as well. Thank you.

Mr J A ESTERHUIZEN: Deputy President, Marikana has forever changed the way and the relationship that our people will see the democratically elected government. In 1994, most of us voted for Nelson Mandela and he did not disappoint us. Hon Deputy President, have the leaders of the ruling party not betrayed those noble objectives?

Will Marikana not always be an example or a monument of collecting vast personal wealth at any cost? My question is: Will you restore - and I'm not talking about the R425 million that you mentioned and the houses being built there, I'm talking more of a psychological issue. How will you restore, not only to the deceased families but to the whole community, the scars left by an incompetent police force whose motto is to serve and protect, and not kill and destroy? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Marikana was clearly a very sad moment in the history of our country. It is an event and a tragedy that we would all as South Africans never wants to see again. Indeed, as the President set up the commission, that is what he had in mind that we should examine exactly what happened with a view of making sure that Marikana does not happen again.

This, he has done so that we can look at the totality of what happened at Marikana and we can move forward together as a nation. The first thing obviously we have to do is to heal the wounds that were caused by the tragedy of Marikana and to move on in a practical way, heal those wounds and look after those who are victims in a number of ways. The government has already started doing that.

The setting up of all the interventions that government has decided on, in many ways is testimony to the fact that we want to address some of the causes that gave rise to this tragedy and to make sure that we address the real problems that many communities around the mining areas face in our country; and also find a way of addressing the migrant labour system. The migrant labour system is really the rock bed of what gave rise to what happened at Marikana. The good thing is that the President is going to lead this effort of even addressing the problem of the migrant labour system.

So, the answers will be found. Some of them may be difficult but we have to confront them as a country, as a nation working together so that we can heal the wounds of Marikana and move forward. Thank you.

The LEADER OF OPPOSITION: The Deputy President, I hold with me here the very respective email that you sent. It in fact says here that the terrible events that have unfolded cannot be described as a labour dispute. They are plainly distortedly criminal and must be characterised as such. In line with this characterisation, there needs to be concomitant action to address this situation.

In fact, further on it says we are essentially dealing with a criminal act. Would the Deputy President concede today that this email confirms that he personally inflamed the situation and that if the Farlam Commission finds any wrong doing or any contributory role that was played by you at Marikana; will you resign as the Deputy President?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Maimane, I had wanted earlier to actually say that I think it would be incorrect to begin here to address substantive issues that are being dealt with by that commission. This precisely touches on that. I sat in that commission for two solid days and I volunteered to go, I was not subpoenaed. I volunteered to go because I wanted to go and tell the truth. The truth is what I told at that commission.

I think as National Assembly we should be respectful of processes that are underway in other structures or institutions that have been instituted by our government. There is a commission that is currently dealing with this very issue. If I were to answer you again it would be almost tantamount to contempt for that commission and you should know that as the leader of the opposition. [Applause.]

So, I would say, let us allow that commission to do its work. Let it finish its work, and having finished its work then as South Africans we can have even broader discussions, which is precisely what the President has asked to do. That question does not arise because the commission is still doing its work. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon Maimane put a direct question to the Deputy President that said: "If the Farlam Commission finds him guilty of wrong doing, will he resign?" The Deputy President has not answered the question. Please, can we not protect the executive in this House?

The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, please let us not undermine our own democracy. Let us not urge this House to be involved in something which is clearly wrong, because we do have a commission that was appointed by the President. It is doing precisely the issues that have been raised; to attend to them; and to get to a point where all of us as a country get to know what it is we need to do to take the issues forward. So, I am not allowing that we should take this issue beyond what the Deputy President has answered.

The MINISTER OF MINERAL RESOURCES: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The question was disposed of and the Deputy President said that the question does not arise because the commission is still busy with the matter. It has been answered directly.

The SPEAKER: Hon Steenhuisen, I am going to ask you to take your seat and allow us to proceed with the last issue. No, you are just delaying ...[Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I am not delaying at all. I am saying to you, you are now calling to question whether in fact we can discuss matters before the Farlam Commission. I did not ask you, Madam Speaker, why this question was allowed on to the order paper in the first place. It refers to this Farlam Commission. Please can you get control of your House.

The SPEAKER: The point I am making to you, hon Steenhuisen, is that you cannot push the Deputy President further than what he has said to the House.

Why not? I, as the Speaker and Presiding Officer here, am not prepared. No matter how much you scream. I am not going to do what you are pushing me to do simply because you are screaming at me.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, the hon Maimane's question is not following from the original question. It is a new one. Besides ... [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Allow the Chief Whip!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: It does not arise from the original question. Besides, the Deputy President cannot anticipate the outcome of the commission. The commission does its work independent of this Parliament and its findings will be made public. We will all respond to it at that point. Therefore, hon Deputy President, ignore hon Maimane.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I would like us to move to question number four.

Mr M WATERS: Speaker, if I may be recognised. You said you won't push the Deputy President for an answer to a simple question. One can only conclude that Luthuli house has called and you are obeying what they have told you to do. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: You have the right to keep enjoying the joke.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (Mr J H JEFFREY): Hon Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The DA seems to have amnesia. They know that Ministers have to respond to questions but they can't be held to answer them. That has been the practice in the House for 20 years. I do not know why in this Parliament they suddenly decide that they can cross examine Ministers and members of the executive, and that they have to answer the question directly. They must look back at what happened in the past four Parliaments and not try and reinvent things.

Source: Unrevised transcript, Hansard.

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