Transcript of reply by President Jacob Zuma in National Assembly, March 20 2013

3. Mr M G P Lekota (Cope) to ask the President of the Republic:

Whether the government has instituted (a) preventative and (b) innovative measures to address the brutalisation of ordinary people through the disproportionate use of force by agencies of the State (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what (i) measures, (ii) are the time frames for implementation and (iii) are the further relevant details?

REPLY:

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, today, on the eve of Human Rights Day on which the brutal apartheid police killed 69 people, we state unequivocally that we are opposed to police who act outside the Constitution and the rule of law. Decisive action is being taken against police officials who violate the rights of the people. While we all condemn such actions, we also acknowledge that not all police officers engage in such behavior. The vast majority work within the law in performing their difficult tasks of protecting the Republic and the public.

There are a number of steps that have been taken by the Minister of Police to address the issue of SA Police Service, SAPS, members who are involved in such activities. In 2010 the Minister of Police introduced two new pieces of legislations, namely, the Civilian Secretariat for Police Act, Act 2 of 2011 and the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Act, Act 1 of 2011. Both have now been enacted and strengthen civilian oversight of the police.

The Independent Police Investigative Directorate has now replaced the Independent Complaints Directorate to investigate police officers who are involved in human rights abuses. Under this new legislation the police are required to immediately report to the new directorate any cases of abuse of powers by police officers. This new directorate can also initiate such investigations. They do not have to wait for the police. Such independent investigations are in line with international best practice in this regard.

The Minister of Police has also introduced a new public order policing policy which was presented to Parliament in 2011. This policy clearly states how the police should respond in dealing with citizens in the context of public order policing. At the end of 2012 the Minister of Police instructed the Civilian Secretariat for Police to look closely at the issues of minimum force in the police service and a full policy on this aspect of policing is at the final stages of completion. Operationally, the Minister of Police is ensuring that disciplinary processes and procedures are effective in dealing with both criminality and corruption within the service.

Training is also critical. From 1994 the human rights ethos of police training received specific attention so that we could transform the SAPS into a democratic era police force.

Let me take this opportunity to commend the majority of the 200 000 strong police force for performing their difficult tasks diligently, leading to a reduction in serious crimes, and also for acting within the law. They deserve the support of the whole nation.

I thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]

Mr L S NGONYAMA: Hon Speaker, hon President, in the light of the recent cases that you have been furnished with, with regard to brutalisation of the ordinary citizens, this House and the country need to be informed about the international training and that the department utilises when it comes to crowd control.

Secondly, what orders do they utilise while going to a street demonstration or controlling crowds?  Are specialist commanders deployed in each and every situation that beckons for crowd control?

The last one which relates to that is the question of untrained commanders that are deployed to take charge of trained policemen. Isn't not compromising them if we, actually, give a civilian the responsibility over the trained police? Thank you. 

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, I'm not certain about the last part, whether they are police officers who are not trained who are holding positions and are in charge of others. Oh! The commissioner, is that what you are referring to?

The commissioner does not deal with operations. She has a range of well-trained policemen and policewomen under the commission; those who know exactly what to do. She doesn't command people for operations. Her job is not to be an operational person in the police force. You will agree and I know what has happened in the recent past and we have all condemned it. But I don't think we can also say that it is a daily occurrence - It's not. There are cases that have happened and we can count them. There are too many crowds that have come that were well controlled by the South African police. Whether demonstrations or strikes they have been controlling them. There are few incidents that we can count. I don't think that that suggest that there is terrible crowd control. I think that statement cannot be accurate. We can focus on the specific incidents and deal with them.

If you talk about a number of police there is one case that we cannot discuss because it is under the commission - the Marikana commission. Well-trained police were there. The question we are trying to find out is what happened. That's what the commission is going to tell us and I'm sure that the police who are there will give their side of the story as it is always. It's not because generally the police force doesn't have the capacity and the skills to control crowd. They control them almost on a continuous basis. However, it does not mean that we should not deepen the training. We should and I think that is agreed so that even those isolated incidents which are bad should not happen. I think we agreed to that one.

But I just think if we put the situation as if generally police here are untrained and they don't know how to control crowd, I don't think that will be telling the truth. There are huge crowds in South Africa, very vibrant which the police are continuously controlling. We all condemned this. Actions, as I have said, are being taken against those who do wrong things and undermine the human rights of the citizens of this country instead of protecting them. Thank you, hon Speaker.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Hon Speaker, once again we currently have a nation that has a brutal militarised police force, as the President has referred to over and over again, which treats civilians as criminals who perhaps should be beaten, raped, murdered and robbed whilst what we need and what we agreed in 1994 and as agreed in the National Development Plan is a demilitarised professional SA Police Service which is able to apprehend violent criminals.

The DA asked the President 16 days ago to institute a judicial commission of inquiry into a pervasive police brutally amongst other things to investigate the root causes of the problem, the actions of senior leaders within and outside the service which may or may not have encouraged this culture of brutality with impunity, and what can be done to cut out this culture of brutality that has become endemic in our SAPS. The question is, will the President appoint such a commission as we have requested? If not explain to this House why he doesn't take this seriously?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, I've just answered the question that the incidents that we all condemn, in fact, are very few that we know about them. We are not talking about the police force. Whether we call it force or a service it's still a force and it's still a service. For now it does not require a commission to investigate that. I don't think it does. Somebody else might have a view that it does. There are very specific measures that the Minister and the department are taking to deal with this kind of issues. As part of the police those who violated the law actions have been taken - they are in prison and they are being charged. I don't think the situation as I see warrants a commission of inquiry. I don't think so. Thank you, hon Speaker.

Mr M HLENGWA: Speaker,

IsiZulu:

 Ngithokoze, Mhlonishwa Mongameli.

English:

Now I'm taken aback by the comments that the President has made by saying that it's a force. No, it's a service. Adults must be adults, please.

Mr President, first of all, may I ask this question. In your view, is there a difference between police force and police service? Secondly, the training which police officers undergo to what extent do they incorporate the observation of human rights because the police service or force, as the President would lead us to believe, have become a law unto themselves. I say this obviously understanding that not all police officers are bad, but perceptions in life are everything and we've got a primary responsibility to clean up the image of the police service or force so that we can, at least, begin to inspire confidence in communities that police take to heart the fundamental issues of human rights. Thank you. 

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, those measures that the hon member is talking about have been taken by the government. The police respect human rights of the citizens of this country. They do and there is a training that is given to them. I've said that there are isolated incidents. It is just like in a country where you have citizens and among them there are criminals. It doesn't mean that the entire citizenry is criminal. We cannot take that kind of a conclusion. There will be those who will be rotten up that need to be dealt with. But we can't say that everybody in South Africa is a criminal because there is crime. We have measures to deal with that.

If you had all the time to theorise about it we could talk about the other question you are asking of whether it's a force or it's a service. The police are organised in a particular way different from an ordinary organisation or political organisation. It's not the same. That's what brings certain elements of the words to describe what this is. I don't think we can say they are not a force. But we can discuss the semantics about whether it's a service or force. This force provides a service to the country. That's what it does. [Applause.] It provides a service, it's a police force. We can debate it and we can come to an agreement if you want to. You have to convince me, and not just ask a question to say why I shouldn't call it a force. Why, is it not providing a service? Why should it be a service? Yes, it was and it did not mean that the police were like a political party where ordinary people coming together. These are police who must fall under a specific discipline, who must have different responsibilities, at different levels and who acts in a particular way precisely to give a good service to the country. Thank you, hon Speaker.

The SPEAKER: Hon members, may I remind you that a supplementary question must relate to or arise from the original question. If not related it's no longer a supplementary question. Let's stick to the Rules, please.

Ms A VAN WYK: Hon Speaker, hon President, there are many more SAPS members that serve South Africa and its citizens with honour and dignity going beyond the call of duty that embodies the motto of the SA Police Service, that reads: Protect and serve.

Mr President, human rights form the basis of our Constitution and therefore should also guide the SAPS in their execution of their duties. One of the problems that doesn't need a commission in it as we all know that it's there is the fact that many people who joined the SA Police Service do so because they see it as a job and not as a career. Will government consider taking the necessary steps so that we can attract people who want to make a career out of the SA Police Service and not merely a job?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Hon Speaker, thanks for the question. I imagine that part of what we need to do is to deal with that question - the recruitment question. Given the evidence that there are some who do things that are not expected to be done by the police indicates that we should strengthen our recruitment and training and perhaps to make it not easy for anyone to come simply by saying that I don't have a job and let me go there. It should not be someone who does not understand what service the police ought to deliver. I think that is a point to be taken into account. I'm sure that the department is listening to that. At the level of recruitment we need to do something more to make it a kind of recruitment that brings in quality and people who are really understanding their task as the police. I think that point will be taken into heart. Thank you. [Applause.]

Source: Unrevised transcript, Hansard

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